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People supporting "new urbanism" -- a camp I was in until pretty recently -- should come look around downtown Seattle and see how it's working out. Our downtow

People supporting "new urbanism" -- a camp I was in until pretty recently -- should come look around downtown Seattle and see how it's working out. Our downtown is a grim wasteland. Shoppers, workers and residents have voted with their feet -- and they voted to avoid downtown. And it's not just Covid. The suburbs are booming. Walkable areas (most with free parking) in the 'burbs have new stores opening and have crowds of people eating, shopping, and enjoying life. Houses are in high-demand, while apartments near the core of the city are easy to find. I say all this to say that maybe we should pause and reconsider new urbanism. The push to remove cars (less parking, more expensive parking, removing lanes, "road diets") isn't making our cities better, it's pushing people away. Strong Towns told us this would make our city better, but all evidence points to our cities getting markedly worse.

userbinator 5y ago
HN seems to have a radical anti-car faction, which is probably why you're being downvoted, but I agree. Turning cities into the equivalent atmosphere of a factory farm is a disturbing trend which seems to mainly come from one side of the political spectrum, the same one that's also anti-car.
rory 5y ago
The lack of a subway system can't help here. How reasonable is it to live without a car in Seattle?
- celtain 5y ago
  It's pretty easy for a childless adult who works downtown and can afford to live in one of the more central neighborhoods of Seattle, and still workable in certain neighborhoods further out that have walkable amenities and good transit connections. If you're willing and able to get occasional rental cars/ride shares then it's absolutely trivial. It's not easy for a lot of other people though. Rent in those neighborhoods is too expensive for most, and while you can take kids around by transit or by bike (and I certainly encourage people to do that when it's convenient), you'd have to be a pretty dedicated urbanist to do that for all your trips.
SECProto 5y ago
> People supporting "new urbanism" [...] should come look around downtown Seattle and see how it's working out. People can go look around the downtown of any given city to see a "grim wasteland", but it has little to do with new urbanism and much to do with covid causing major shift to work from home + avoiding a lot of in-person events.
- nostromo 5y ago
  I agree, Covid has been a catalyst for the change. But 1) the start of the shift pre-dates Covid and 2) suburbs are booming with in-person activity, so it's not just Covid.
beaconstudios 5y ago
Isn't that just because people live in the suburbs? I think your example proves the opposite point to the one you're making - people would rather live in walkable mixed developments than have their destinations zoned away from their accommodation.
- ctdonath 5y ago
  “Walkable” doesn’t give much room for options. 30 minutes walking covers far less area than 30 minutes driving.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    Have you ever lived or travelled to a walkable city? You'd be surprised how much you can fit into a walkable area. In the UK basically all the cities are walkable just due to historical inertia; you can fit plenty of city into walkable areas. For bigger cities like London there's the underground system to travel further out.
lkasdjfb09u 5y ago
The opposite is true in NYC. Do you have public transit?

userbinator 5y ago

HN seems to have a radical anti-car faction, which is probably why you're being downvoted, but I agree. Turning cities into the equivalent atmosphere of a factory farm is a disturbing trend which seems to mainly come from one side of the political spectrum, the same one that's also anti-car.

rory 5y ago

The lack of a subway system can't help here. How reasonable is it to live without a car in Seattle?

celtain 5y ago
It's pretty easy for a childless adult who works downtown and can afford to live in one of the more central neighborhoods of Seattle, and still workable in certain neighborhoods further out that have walkable amenities and good transit connections. If you're willing and able to get occasional rental cars/ride shares then it's absolutely trivial. It's not easy for a lot of other people though. Rent in those neighborhoods is too expensive for most, and while you can take kids around by transit or by bike (and I certainly encourage people to do that when it's convenient), you'd have to be a pretty dedicated urbanist to do that for all your trips.

SECProto 5y ago

> People supporting "new urbanism" [...] should come look around downtown Seattle and see how it's working out. People can go look around the downtown of any given city to see a "grim wasteland", but it has little to do with new urbanism and much to do with covid causing major shift to work from home + avoiding a lot of in-person events.

nostromo 5y ago
I agree, Covid has been a catalyst for the change. But 1) the start of the shift pre-dates Covid and 2) suburbs are booming with in-person activity, so it's not just Covid.

beaconstudios 5y ago

Isn't that just because people live in the suburbs? I think your example proves the opposite point to the one you're making - people would rather live in walkable mixed developments than have their destinations zoned away from their accommodation.

ctdonath 5y ago
“Walkable” doesn’t give much room for options. 30 minutes walking covers far less area than 30 minutes driving.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  Have you ever lived or travelled to a walkable city? You'd be surprised how much you can fit into a walkable area. In the UK basically all the cities are walkable just due to historical inertia; you can fit plenty of city into walkable areas. For bigger cities like London there's the underground system to travel further out.

lkasdjfb09u 5y ago

The opposite is true in NYC. Do you have public transit?