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”for some reason” Are they the ones having to do this kind of work? Probably not, right? At least in some cases? There’s at least part of the answer. Questi

by dvtrn 5y ago

”for some reason” Are they the ones having to do this kind of work? Probably not, right? At least in some cases? There’s at least part of the answer. Question in my mind becomes: how do we get the people who aren’t doing this work to understand and empathize with the productivity needs of those who are? I’m out of answers because everything that probably can be said about it HAS been said about it from people far smarter than I am-from blog post to published airport book to published academic studies-and yet here we are still having this conversation amongst ourselves as developers and engineers.

MarkMarine 5y ago
The people distracting (PMs, Managers) are often the ones charged with getting the most out of the people being distracted, and honestly I don’t even think it’s their fault. They don’t see the work happen unless they are in a meeting where it’s done, and their schedule is mainly meetings so that is their impression of doing work.
elpakal 5y ago
I just don’t think it’s possible unless the people making the distractions have once been the people being distracted, and even more so there are people whose livelihoods depend on meetings happening (scrum masters for eg). Just IMHO there will always be friction between people who cant afford to be distracted and those that need to be distracted when people like this work together.
__MatrixMan__ 5y ago
Maybe we need to get rid of the managers and instead take turns being manager. I'll focus three days a week and manage one day a week. The other four members of my team do the same. The fifth day is for meetings, and if we don't need all day for that, it's for going outside.
- wayoutthere 5y ago
  Good managers should be asking you what you need and removing organizational roadblocks to make that happen. They should be in a lot of meetings because they’re shielding you from meetings, filtering the important things and bringing them back to the team in some sort of regular format that isn’t a daily meeting. Most managers are not good managers, however.
  - not2b 5y ago
    I am fortunate enough to have this kind of manager.
  - dvtrn 5y ago
    * Most managers are not good managers, however* There it is. I deliberately chose to step back from management and went back to being an IC despite getting feedback from my former direct reports that genuinely almost made this cynical fucker cry about what a great manager I was for them. Truth be told, as much as I really enjoyed the presence of, and admired the people reporting up to me and what I was able to do for them, and how they made ME a better manager and engineer, I never want to be a manager ever again. By my own standards, I’m not good at it and the stress it brought, eh. Just not compatible. Glad I learned that lesson. I’d much rather be on the doing end, the next time I find myself in management will be when I finally have the means to cut loose and work for myself full time.
  - datavirtue 5y ago
    As the article mentioned, managers are dumping management tasks on subordinates (because they themselves are overworked). I just got a big dose of this at a client I just left (because they were working us way too hard). They have a career track that includes not being a manager but instead a principle engineer or whatever. The managers were punting management work to these principle engineers. People who had already decided they were not managers and were not going to focus on those skills. They were basically forced into it, micromanaged people like crazy, burning everyone out. This, after rebooting the project a few times because they couldn't get traction. As soon as the project got traction and was getting accolades this happened. Their senior lead developer (at the cusp of being forced into management) left the same time I did. I would be surprised if the project is not in crisis mode soon.
jrs235 5y ago
http://paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html http://paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html
- dvtrn 5y ago
  FTA: When you're operating on the manager's schedule you can do something you'd never want to do on the maker's: you can have speculative meetings. You can meet someone just to get to know one another. If you have an empty slot in your schedule, why not? Here's why not: Taken in context of the essay written, this amounts to optimizing my time due to a lack of my superiors optimizing theirs. Taken on its own, I don't really care how my managers choose to spend their time as managers. But when the power differential surely speaks to the reality that managers will always concern themselves with what I'm doing-perhaps by nature of the manager/subordinate relationship-I think I'm in the right to expect some kind of reciprocity in making time for one another. Good managers make the time for their subordinates. Average managers stumble upon the free time. Poor managers constantly reschedule. I'm not against getting to know my coworkers and making time for general socializing as a means of "taking a break", but in the context of "makers schedules" and "manager schedules"...sorry. No. I don't (necessarily) disagree with the essay (at least not as much as I usually reserve a certain amount of reticence for Grahamisms), but the suggested solution...eh. I need to hear a better motivating reason than this because this isn't about some hypothetical problem between me and people I'd like to get to know via "speculative meetings". This is about managers demanding so much of our time via "just in case we need you" meetings and turning right around asking us to be productive and meet deadlines in spite of said meetings.
dbtc 5y ago
Is it possible that some companies with e.g. VC funding behave in a similar way to an employee who counts dollars on the clock, padding time with busywork to make it through another payday? There may be a much broader culture of unproductivity, which manifests in this and other ways.

by dvtrn 5y ago

MarkMarine 5y ago

The people distracting (PMs, Managers) are often the ones charged with getting the most out of the people being distracted, and honestly I don’t even think it’s their fault. They don’t see the work happen unless they are in a meeting where it’s done, and their schedule is mainly meetings so that is their impression of doing work.

elpakal 5y ago

I just don’t think it’s possible unless the people making the distractions have once been the people being distracted, and even more so there are people whose livelihoods depend on meetings happening (scrum masters for eg). Just IMHO there will always be friction between people who cant afford to be distracted and those that need to be distracted when people like this work together.

__MatrixMan__ 5y ago

Maybe we need to get rid of the managers and instead take turns being manager. I'll focus three days a week and manage one day a week. The other four members of my team do the same. The fifth day is for meetings, and if we don't need all day for that, it's for going outside.

wayoutthere 5y ago
Good managers should be asking you what you need and removing organizational roadblocks to make that happen. They should be in a lot of meetings because they’re shielding you from meetings, filtering the important things and bringing them back to the team in some sort of regular format that isn’t a daily meeting. Most managers are not good managers, however.
- not2b 5y ago
  I am fortunate enough to have this kind of manager.
- dvtrn 5y ago
  * Most managers are not good managers, however* There it is. I deliberately chose to step back from management and went back to being an IC despite getting feedback from my former direct reports that genuinely almost made this cynical fucker cry about what a great manager I was for them. Truth be told, as much as I really enjoyed the presence of, and admired the people reporting up to me and what I was able to do for them, and how they made ME a better manager and engineer, I never want to be a manager ever again. By my own standards, I’m not good at it and the stress it brought, eh. Just not compatible. Glad I learned that lesson. I’d much rather be on the doing end, the next time I find myself in management will be when I finally have the means to cut loose and work for myself full time.
- datavirtue 5y ago
  As the article mentioned, managers are dumping management tasks on subordinates (because they themselves are overworked). I just got a big dose of this at a client I just left (because they were working us way too hard). They have a career track that includes not being a manager but instead a principle engineer or whatever. The managers were punting management work to these principle engineers. People who had already decided they were not managers and were not going to focus on those skills. They were basically forced into it, micromanaged people like crazy, burning everyone out. This, after rebooting the project a few times because they couldn't get traction. As soon as the project got traction and was getting accolades this happened. Their senior lead developer (at the cusp of being forced into management) left the same time I did. I would be surprised if the project is not in crisis mode soon.

jrs235 5y ago

http://paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html http://paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html

dvtrn 5y ago
FTA: When you're operating on the manager's schedule you can do something you'd never want to do on the maker's: you can have speculative meetings. You can meet someone just to get to know one another. If you have an empty slot in your schedule, why not? Here's why not: Taken in context of the essay written, this amounts to optimizing my time due to a lack of my superiors optimizing theirs. Taken on its own, I don't really care how my managers choose to spend their time as managers. But when the power differential surely speaks to the reality that managers will always concern themselves with what I'm doing-perhaps by nature of the manager/subordinate relationship-I think I'm in the right to expect some kind of reciprocity in making time for one another. Good managers make the time for their subordinates. Average managers stumble upon the free time. Poor managers constantly reschedule. I'm not against getting to know my coworkers and making time for general socializing as a means of "taking a break", but in the context of "makers schedules" and "manager schedules"...sorry. No. I don't (necessarily) disagree with the essay (at least not as much as I usually reserve a certain amount of reticence for Grahamisms), but the suggested solution...eh. I need to hear a better motivating reason than this because this isn't about some hypothetical problem between me and people I'd like to get to know via "speculative meetings". This is about managers demanding so much of our time via "just in case we need you" meetings and turning right around asking us to be productive and meet deadlines in spite of said meetings.

dbtc 5y ago

Is it possible that some companies with e.g. VC funding behave in a similar way to an employee who counts dollars on the clock, padding time with busywork to make it through another payday? There may be a much broader culture of unproductivity, which manifests in this and other ways.