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Not sure about the chromebook, but that iPad is probably ~8 years old. I have a laptop that’s older than that, and I’d be pretty annoyed if the internet was irr

Not sure about the chromebook, but that iPad is probably ~8 years old. I have a laptop that’s older than that, and I’d be pretty annoyed if the internet was irrevocably broken on it. This is an interesting argument for general-purpose computers over specialized, user-friendly ones (iOS, chromeOS). Personally, I’d rather buy my grandma an iPad every 5 years for the rest of her life than try to teach her how to use a general-purpose computer, but that’s not a reasonable solution for everyone.

OtomotO 5y ago
I still have and occasionally use a notebook from 2007. So I totally agree
JBiserkov 5y ago
This reminds me of a story from 2013. We were developing a web app and kept hearing about a friend of our boss who was having trouble with it in Australia. We assumed it was ping to our small server in Europe. Turns out he was using a very old version of Firefox, but that was the latest one available on his MacBook. Yes, his PowerPC MacBook.
- shuffel 5y ago
  Mozilla cuts off support for macOS releases much too early in my opinion. I'm running macOS 10.14 Mojave which was released in 2018 and it only supports FireFox 91. The latest version of FireFox is 96. I can't find a definitive statement what minimum version of macOS is needed by the latest Firefox, but what they list on https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/96.0/system-requirements/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/96.0/system-requiremen... is incorrect and/or out of date: macOS 10.12. Contrast that support with Google Chrome, its latest browser works on OS X El Capitan 10.11 from 2015: https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/7100626?hl=en https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/7100626?hl=en - which is much more reasonable. EDIT: I was wrong. mrpippy pointed out in a reply below that Mojave is still supported by the latest FF release. I was using the FF ESR release which only goes up to FF version 91. Sorry for the noise, and thanks for correcting me.
  - jeroenhd 5y ago
    On the other hand, Mozilla has fewer resources to spend on maintaining backwards compatibility. Mojave is pretty old as far as continuously updated operating systems are concerned, and the devices that didn't get the Mojave update are all over 10 years old at this point. The hardware itself is supported just fine; install Linux on your 2011 Macbook and you can download the latest and greatest Firefox release. Mozilla just doesn't spend much time on operating systems that have fallen out of support. I don't expect them to keep their Windows 7 builds going for long once Microsoft ends their paid support programme. If Apple doesn't bother publishing regular security and maintenance updates, then why should Mozilla? Users shouldn't be running operating systems that receive no or only some security patches anyway.
    - shuffel 5y ago
      Upgrading or switching the OS is a major undertaking. I appreciate that Mozilla has fewer resources than Google, but having the latest version of FireFox working only on macOS versions released within the past two years is unnecessarily restrictive in my opinion. I'm an independent software developer far more financially constrained than Mozilla who supports macOS releases going back 10 years. It's just a matter of not using the new API calls shipped with each new OS release and optionally dynamically loading the API calls that are not present on all OS versions. EDIT: My original post was wrong. Mozilla still supports Mojave. See details above.
  - mrpippy 5y ago
    I’m also running Mojave, and am still getting Firefox updates. Not sure why you aren’t, and I think their stated support back to 10.12 is still accurate.
    - shuffel 5y ago
      Thanks for your reply. I feel a bit silly now. I just learned that I have Firefox ESR, which is different from Firefox: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/where-find-release-notes-firefox-enterprise https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/where-find-release-note... https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/91.5.0/releasenotes/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/91.5.0/releasenotes/ I just assumed I downloaded the regular Firefox release, but evidently not.
- easrng 5y ago
  Should've switched to TenFourFox, probably would've worked better.
- comex 5y ago
  Perhaps you mean iBook or PowerBook? The "MacBook" brand was introduced at the same time as Intel processors.
markstos 5y ago
It's also an argument for unlocked bootloaders. For example, the Nexus 5 phone released about 8 years ago is still selling for over $100 on eBay because it's easy to install hacking software on it that was featured in Mr. Robot. If you have an iPhone that old that no longer receives iOS updates, there's no way to get security updates on it or install some other OS.
- signal11 5y ago
  I thought getting a Chromebook to boot Linux was pretty easy (e.g., ChrUbuntu). Is that for Intel Chromebooks only?
  - markstos 5y ago
    There's a scary warning that you are doing something unsupported and if you press the wrong key, whatever is installed will be wiped and the default OS restored. I think there's more desire and utility the other way around-- old general purpose laptops make pretty good Chromebooks (by using Neverware's Cloudready, no also owned by Google), but there's not much demand for turning eight old Chromebooks into general purpose computers. I have such an old Chromebook. I bought it for about $130. It has a mediocre keyboard and an 11" lower-quality TN display. Now it doesn't get OS updates. Current eBay price is $20.
    - wffurr 5y ago
      They really ought to ditch the unsigned boot warning on EOL hardware, so that it can be repurposed with Ubuntu or Cloudready or what-have-you.
      - sundarurfriend 5y ago
        But they won't because it's much more profitable if the user buys new hardware instead, nevermind whether the existing device is fundamentally capable of serving their needs, and nevermind the accumulating e-waste. It's a hopeful sign that OP's parents are at least catching on to the planned obsolescence pattern. That makes it easier to explain the importance of right-to-repair type regulations to a non-technical audience.
akkartik 5y ago
I don't understand why you consider the iPad to not be a general-purpose computer. Do you mean an iPad without a web browser? Is iOS really good at keeping ancient apps working on ancient devices?
- titanomachy 5y ago
  By “general-purpose computer” I mean something that is programmable/configurable down to a low level. If I have a Linux or macOS laptop it would be pretty hard for the manufacturer to stop me from installing an up-to-date browser; worst-case I can compile Firefox from source. I bet it would work even on a 20-year-old computer. The iPad, while a great machine, can’t really be considered “general-purpose” since I can’t compile and run arbitrary code on it. For most iPad users this is a feature: it makes the thing much safer to use.
  - akkartik 5y ago
    I see, so you mean rooted or unlocked?
    - titanomachy 5y ago
      I suppose. If I buy a new Macbook I can immediately compile and run whatever software I like on it. I don't usually think of it as "rooted": in my mind, root access is the norm when you buy a general-purpose computer.
      - akkartik 5y ago
        This was kinda what I was trying to suss out. I've gradually started thinking of Macbooks as "not general-purpose." For example, I can no longer get gdb working on them. At least it's imposed enough barriers that I haven't been incentivized to spend a lot of effort getting over. Going back to your original comment above, a general purpose computer definitely helps. But as the chromebook side of things shows, it's not sufficient.

OtomotO 5y ago

I still have and occasionally use a notebook from 2007. So I totally agree

JBiserkov 5y ago

This reminds me of a story from 2013. We were developing a web app and kept hearing about a friend of our boss who was having trouble with it in Australia. We assumed it was ping to our small server in Europe. Turns out he was using a very old version of Firefox, but that was the latest one available on his MacBook. Yes, his PowerPC MacBook.

shuffel 5y ago
Mozilla cuts off support for macOS releases much too early in my opinion. I'm running macOS 10.14 Mojave which was released in 2018 and it only supports FireFox 91. The latest version of FireFox is 96. I can't find a definitive statement what minimum version of macOS is needed by the latest Firefox, but what they list on https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/96.0/system-requirements/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/96.0/system-requiremen... is incorrect and/or out of date: macOS 10.12. Contrast that support with Google Chrome, its latest browser works on OS X El Capitan 10.11 from 2015: https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/7100626?hl=en https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/7100626?hl=en - which is much more reasonable. EDIT: I was wrong. mrpippy pointed out in a reply below that Mojave is still supported by the latest FF release. I was using the FF ESR release which only goes up to FF version 91. Sorry for the noise, and thanks for correcting me.
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  On the other hand, Mozilla has fewer resources to spend on maintaining backwards compatibility. Mojave is pretty old as far as continuously updated operating systems are concerned, and the devices that didn't get the Mojave update are all over 10 years old at this point. The hardware itself is supported just fine; install Linux on your 2011 Macbook and you can download the latest and greatest Firefox release. Mozilla just doesn't spend much time on operating systems that have fallen out of support. I don't expect them to keep their Windows 7 builds going for long once Microsoft ends their paid support programme. If Apple doesn't bother publishing regular security and maintenance updates, then why should Mozilla? Users shouldn't be running operating systems that receive no or only some security patches anyway.
  - shuffel 5y ago
    Upgrading or switching the OS is a major undertaking. I appreciate that Mozilla has fewer resources than Google, but having the latest version of FireFox working only on macOS versions released within the past two years is unnecessarily restrictive in my opinion. I'm an independent software developer far more financially constrained than Mozilla who supports macOS releases going back 10 years. It's just a matter of not using the new API calls shipped with each new OS release and optionally dynamically loading the API calls that are not present on all OS versions. EDIT: My original post was wrong. Mozilla still supports Mojave. See details above.
- mrpippy 5y ago
  I’m also running Mojave, and am still getting Firefox updates. Not sure why you aren’t, and I think their stated support back to 10.12 is still accurate.
  - shuffel 5y ago
    Thanks for your reply. I feel a bit silly now. I just learned that I have Firefox ESR, which is different from Firefox: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/where-find-release-notes-firefox-enterprise https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/where-find-release-note... https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/91.5.0/releasenotes/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/91.5.0/releasenotes/ I just assumed I downloaded the regular Firefox release, but evidently not.
easrng 5y ago
Should've switched to TenFourFox, probably would've worked better.
comex 5y ago
Perhaps you mean iBook or PowerBook? The "MacBook" brand was introduced at the same time as Intel processors.

markstos 5y ago

It's also an argument for unlocked bootloaders. For example, the Nexus 5 phone released about 8 years ago is still selling for over $100 on eBay because it's easy to install hacking software on it that was featured in Mr. Robot. If you have an iPhone that old that no longer receives iOS updates, there's no way to get security updates on it or install some other OS.

signal11 5y ago
I thought getting a Chromebook to boot Linux was pretty easy (e.g., ChrUbuntu). Is that for Intel Chromebooks only?
- markstos 5y ago
  There's a scary warning that you are doing something unsupported and if you press the wrong key, whatever is installed will be wiped and the default OS restored. I think there's more desire and utility the other way around-- old general purpose laptops make pretty good Chromebooks (by using Neverware's Cloudready, no also owned by Google), but there's not much demand for turning eight old Chromebooks into general purpose computers. I have such an old Chromebook. I bought it for about $130. It has a mediocre keyboard and an 11" lower-quality TN display. Now it doesn't get OS updates. Current eBay price is $20.
  - wffurr 5y ago
    They really ought to ditch the unsigned boot warning on EOL hardware, so that it can be repurposed with Ubuntu or Cloudready or what-have-you.
    - sundarurfriend 5y ago
      But they won't because it's much more profitable if the user buys new hardware instead, nevermind whether the existing device is fundamentally capable of serving their needs, and nevermind the accumulating e-waste. It's a hopeful sign that OP's parents are at least catching on to the planned obsolescence pattern. That makes it easier to explain the importance of right-to-repair type regulations to a non-technical audience.

akkartik 5y ago

I don't understand why you consider the iPad to not be a general-purpose computer. Do you mean an iPad without a web browser? Is iOS really good at keeping ancient apps working on ancient devices?

titanomachy 5y ago
By “general-purpose computer” I mean something that is programmable/configurable down to a low level. If I have a Linux or macOS laptop it would be pretty hard for the manufacturer to stop me from installing an up-to-date browser; worst-case I can compile Firefox from source. I bet it would work even on a 20-year-old computer. The iPad, while a great machine, can’t really be considered “general-purpose” since I can’t compile and run arbitrary code on it. For most iPad users this is a feature: it makes the thing much safer to use.
- akkartik 5y ago
  I see, so you mean rooted or unlocked?
  - titanomachy 5y ago
    I suppose. If I buy a new Macbook I can immediately compile and run whatever software I like on it. I don't usually think of it as "rooted": in my mind, root access is the norm when you buy a general-purpose computer.
    - akkartik 5y ago
      This was kinda what I was trying to suss out. I've gradually started thinking of Macbooks as "not general-purpose." For example, I can no longer get gdb working on them. At least it's imposed enough barriers that I haven't been incentivized to spend a lot of effort getting over. Going back to your original comment above, a general purpose computer definitely helps. But as the chromebook side of things shows, it's not sufficient.