7 ms·

Well from an outsider look I'd say the problem is the majority of businesses are running Windows and have reasons not to move off Windows. Even basic reasons su

by rjd 15y ago

Well from an outsider look I'd say the problem is the majority of businesses are running Windows and have reasons not to move off Windows. Even basic reasons such as staff training. This from what I can tell is addressing that issue. As for your statement about Linux and Unix being better thats far from true. There are many areas where Windows doesn't compete at all with those systems, but its also completely true that Linux and Unix is completely rubbish at certain things Windows excels at. Like most things you should choose the OS that meets your needs, and for most people using a Microsoft stack, with Microsoft trained users, using software aimed at Microsoft platforms then this could be the answer. Proof will be in the pudding of course, these guys are far from ready at this point, and are approaching the hard part of a project.

thwarted 15y ago
As for your statement about Linux and Unix being better thats far from true. There are many areas where Windows doesn't compete at all with those systems, but its also completely true that Linux and Unix is completely rubbish at certain things Windows excels at. Is this anything other than application support?
- coderdude 15y ago
  You mean aside from lousy driver support, even in Ubuntu? Try playing a modern game in a Linux distro. You probably can't get Wine to run it properly and if you can there's still your issue with good drivers for nVidia (and possibly ATI) cards. (Long-time Ubuntu user)
  - pyre 15y ago
    Talking about running things in Wine is the point the parent post was talking about.
  - w1ntermute 15y ago
    > You mean aside from lousy driver support, even in Ubuntu? No, he means aside from applications, such as the games you mentioned.
- kstenerud 15y ago
  - Better GUI integration - Standardized and complete API going beyond simple libc and POSIX (which are quite long in the tooth now) - Access control lists - Nicer driver system and better driver support To name a few.
  - thwarted 15y ago
    Exactly which things have better GUI integration on Windows, which are not related to application support? In fact, what does "GUI integration" even mean? The Windows API is standardized? I suppose, but only because Microsoft is the only one who ships anything even close to a complete implementation of it. So it's standard on the one thing that ships it. I won't speak to if libc or POSIX is better or worse, but if they're going to be called "simple", the argument can be made that that's the UNIX philosophy, and a more valid critique would be if they were not simple and didn't adhere to the UNIX philosophy. Both Windows and Linux's libc/POSIX are solid APIs and are standardized, and the latter is largely documented where they diverge. Linux supports POSIX access control lists. I actually find the Windows ACL support to be extremely subpar: the command line utilities are tough to use from cmd.exe, and the GUI for handling ACLs is brutal, albeit functional. The getfacl and setfacl Linux utilities are not super fantastic either, but they are there. What's the qualification for a "nicer" driver system, that isn't better driver support?
    - wvenable 15y ago
      > What's the qualification for a "nicer" driver system, that isn't better driver support? Windows effectively has user-installable drivers and Linux, for intents and purposes, does not. In fact, Windows has the equivalent of apt-get for drivers -- a central auto-updating repository. Comparably, Linux is a backwards wasteland when it comes to drivers and driver management.
      - thwarted 15y ago
        I can't remember the last time I had to install a driver using anything other than apt-get or yum on my Linux desktop or laptop -- although I do have a hand configured xorg.conf that I've been using for years. The majority of drivers are available with the kernel, and those that are not and are popular are packaged up by the distribution maintainers.
ra 15y ago
> but its also completely true that Linux and Unix is completely rubbish at certain things Windows excels at. Have you got an example?
- Bo102010 15y ago
  I'm not a fanboy of Linux or Windows (I use both at work and at home), but I would venture application install experience? I was reading (http://blog.vrplumber.com/index.php?/archives/2526-Python-2.5.6-on-Ubuntu-Natty...-urgh....html http://blog.vrplumber.com/index.php?/archives/2526-Python-2....) today and thinking, "This wouldn't have been much of a problem on Windows."
  - rjbond3rd 15y ago
    To be honest, when installing on Linux is hard, to me it feels worthwhile -- I'm gaining experience and knowledge. And in contrast, the slightest annoyance on Windows confirms my worst feelings about Windows, and I give up quickly in disguest. For whatever (illusory) reason, Linux comes across as logical and an interesting puzzle that is worth the time invested, whereas Windows comes across as arbitrary and makes me feel like I've wasted my time. Yes, it's a double standard but what can I say. At least with Linux, you can drill down as far as you want (and with Windows, I feel that I can't but it's partially a case of "Why should I bother, I can't see the source.")
    - mattgreenrocks 15y ago
      Obviously, you haven't played with anything that uses autotools, have you? :) > it's partially a case of "Why should I bother, I can't see the source." I used to think this too. Then I noticed that my Ubuntu 10.04 machine exhibits hard-lock like symptoms anytime I make -j. I know approximately what the problem is: the kernel scheduler isn't giving enough time to the UI while it does this, but, even with source, it isn't something I can fix trivially. Just reading the source and seeing where it happens doesn't do anything to make me feel better. It shouldn't ever happen. Period.
SwellJoe 15y ago
"Proof will be in the pudding of course, these guys are far from ready at this point, and are approaching the hard part of a project." They may be approaching the hard part of the project, just as the desktop is becoming irrelevant. It's already too late. It was too late when they started, but it's really too late now. "Like most things you should choose the OS that meets your needs, and for most people using a Microsoft stack, with Microsoft trained users, using software aimed at Microsoft platforms then this could be the answer." I don't see how it could be. It is a clone of Windows XP (a ten year old operating system, no longer supported by Microsoft). It runs on less hardware, works with fewer Windows applications, and works less reliably, than a Linux system with WINE (which I also don't consider a useful substitute for Windows in the context you're speaking of, but it's better than ReactOS currently, and probably well into the future, since it has more active developers, more commercial support, and smaller more obtainable goals). Again, I think ReactOS is a solution looking for a problem.
CoffeeDregs 15y ago
[Note: I run Debian on my laptop and servers. And I use Gnome 3! <ducks>] >Well from an outsider look I'd say the problem is the >majority of businesses are running Windows and have reasons >not to move off Windows. [I understand that you soften this later, but...] This is not a Bad Thing. I certainly would say that MS has used some nasty tactics to gain dominance, but more power to them if they provide value to customers. Personally, I don't see the value in the ROS project. MS provides a product that people use on servers and that's fine. The ROS team's calories would be much better expended helping Linux improve. > its also completely true that Linux and Unix is completely rubbish > at certain things Windows excels at. I'd love an example here. AFAIK, ROS is basically a server OS and I'm not aware of any places that Windows demolishes Linux/Unix in the server arena (except in the I've-got-an-army-of-Windows-IT-folks department).
xentronium 15y ago
> Well from an outsider look I'd say the problem is the majority of businesses are running Windows and have reasons not to move off Windows. Even basic reasons such as staff training. This from what I can tell is addressing that issue. I don't know how things are in other countries, but here in Russia if you are not using windows programs for accounting (namely 1C:Enterprise), you're going to have troubles converting them for the federal tax service. This is effectively a microsoft/1C monopoly since 1C:Enterprise only runs on windows stack (there has been some success with WINE, but it is not supported, of course). That is why lots of small businesses use pirated windows and could benefit from development of alternate windows compatible OS like ReactOS.

by rjd 15y ago

thwarted 15y ago

As for your statement about Linux and Unix being better thats far from true. There are many areas where Windows doesn't compete at all with those systems, but its also completely true that Linux and Unix is completely rubbish at certain things Windows excels at. Is this anything other than application support?

coderdude 15y ago
You mean aside from lousy driver support, even in Ubuntu? Try playing a modern game in a Linux distro. You probably can't get Wine to run it properly and if you can there's still your issue with good drivers for nVidia (and possibly ATI) cards. (Long-time Ubuntu user)
- pyre 15y ago
  Talking about running things in Wine is the point the parent post was talking about.
- w1ntermute 15y ago
  > You mean aside from lousy driver support, even in Ubuntu? No, he means aside from applications, such as the games you mentioned.
kstenerud 15y ago
- Better GUI integration - Standardized and complete API going beyond simple libc and POSIX (which are quite long in the tooth now) - Access control lists - Nicer driver system and better driver support To name a few.
- thwarted 15y ago
  Exactly which things have better GUI integration on Windows, which are not related to application support? In fact, what does "GUI integration" even mean? The Windows API is standardized? I suppose, but only because Microsoft is the only one who ships anything even close to a complete implementation of it. So it's standard on the one thing that ships it. I won't speak to if libc or POSIX is better or worse, but if they're going to be called "simple", the argument can be made that that's the UNIX philosophy, and a more valid critique would be if they were not simple and didn't adhere to the UNIX philosophy. Both Windows and Linux's libc/POSIX are solid APIs and are standardized, and the latter is largely documented where they diverge. Linux supports POSIX access control lists. I actually find the Windows ACL support to be extremely subpar: the command line utilities are tough to use from cmd.exe, and the GUI for handling ACLs is brutal, albeit functional. The getfacl and setfacl Linux utilities are not super fantastic either, but they are there. What's the qualification for a "nicer" driver system, that isn't better driver support?
  - wvenable 15y ago
    > What's the qualification for a "nicer" driver system, that isn't better driver support? Windows effectively has user-installable drivers and Linux, for intents and purposes, does not. In fact, Windows has the equivalent of apt-get for drivers -- a central auto-updating repository. Comparably, Linux is a backwards wasteland when it comes to drivers and driver management.
    - thwarted 15y ago
      I can't remember the last time I had to install a driver using anything other than apt-get or yum on my Linux desktop or laptop -- although I do have a hand configured xorg.conf that I've been using for years. The majority of drivers are available with the kernel, and those that are not and are popular are packaged up by the distribution maintainers.

ra 15y ago

> but its also completely true that Linux and Unix is completely rubbish at certain things Windows excels at. Have you got an example?

Bo102010 15y ago
I'm not a fanboy of Linux or Windows (I use both at work and at home), but I would venture application install experience? I was reading (http://blog.vrplumber.com/index.php?/archives/2526-Python-2.5.6-on-Ubuntu-Natty...-urgh....html http://blog.vrplumber.com/index.php?/archives/2526-Python-2....) today and thinking, "This wouldn't have been much of a problem on Windows."
- rjbond3rd 15y ago
  To be honest, when installing on Linux is hard, to me it feels worthwhile -- I'm gaining experience and knowledge. And in contrast, the slightest annoyance on Windows confirms my worst feelings about Windows, and I give up quickly in disguest. For whatever (illusory) reason, Linux comes across as logical and an interesting puzzle that is worth the time invested, whereas Windows comes across as arbitrary and makes me feel like I've wasted my time. Yes, it's a double standard but what can I say. At least with Linux, you can drill down as far as you want (and with Windows, I feel that I can't but it's partially a case of "Why should I bother, I can't see the source.")
  - mattgreenrocks 15y ago
    Obviously, you haven't played with anything that uses autotools, have you? :) > it's partially a case of "Why should I bother, I can't see the source." I used to think this too. Then I noticed that my Ubuntu 10.04 machine exhibits hard-lock like symptoms anytime I make -j. I know approximately what the problem is: the kernel scheduler isn't giving enough time to the UI while it does this, but, even with source, it isn't something I can fix trivially. Just reading the source and seeing where it happens doesn't do anything to make me feel better. It shouldn't ever happen. Period.

SwellJoe 15y ago

"Proof will be in the pudding of course, these guys are far from ready at this point, and are approaching the hard part of a project." They may be approaching the hard part of the project, just as the desktop is becoming irrelevant. It's already too late. It was too late when they started, but it's really too late now. "Like most things you should choose the OS that meets your needs, and for most people using a Microsoft stack, with Microsoft trained users, using software aimed at Microsoft platforms then this could be the answer." I don't see how it could be. It is a clone of Windows XP (a ten year old operating system, no longer supported by Microsoft). It runs on less hardware, works with fewer Windows applications, and works less reliably, than a Linux system with WINE (which I also don't consider a useful substitute for Windows in the context you're speaking of, but it's better than ReactOS currently, and probably well into the future, since it has more active developers, more commercial support, and smaller more obtainable goals). Again, I think ReactOS is a solution looking for a problem.

CoffeeDregs 15y ago

[Note: I run Debian on my laptop and servers. And I use Gnome 3! <ducks>] >Well from an outsider look I'd say the problem is the >majority of businesses are running Windows and have reasons >not to move off Windows. [I understand that you soften this later, but...] This is not a Bad Thing. I certainly would say that MS has used some nasty tactics to gain dominance, but more power to them if they provide value to customers. Personally, I don't see the value in the ROS project. MS provides a product that people use on servers and that's fine. The ROS team's calories would be much better expended helping Linux improve. > its also completely true that Linux and Unix is completely rubbish > at certain things Windows excels at. I'd love an example here. AFAIK, ROS is basically a server OS and I'm not aware of any places that Windows demolishes Linux/Unix in the server arena (except in the I've-got-an-army-of-Windows-IT-folks department).

xentronium 15y ago

> Well from an outsider look I'd say the problem is the majority of businesses are running Windows and have reasons not to move off Windows. Even basic reasons such as staff training. This from what I can tell is addressing that issue. I don't know how things are in other countries, but here in Russia if you are not using windows programs for accounting (namely 1C:Enterprise), you're going to have troubles converting them for the federal tax service. This is effectively a microsoft/1C monopoly since 1C:Enterprise only runs on windows stack (there has been some success with WINE, but it is not supported, of course). That is why lots of small businesses use pirated windows and could benefit from development of alternate windows compatible OS like ReactOS.