5 ms·

I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Are you blaming capitalism for the moral failures of a communist regime? Maybe you're just suggesting capitalism isn't

by toolz 5y ago

I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Are you blaming capitalism for the moral failures of a communist regime? Maybe you're just suggesting capitalism isn't capable of "solving" the wrongdoings of communism? If so I would agree. A society that accepts the evils of communism is a difficult thing to solve externally.

GavinMcG 5y ago
I think they're blaming capitalism for the moral failings of the capitalist companies who willingly submit to immoral demands.
me_me_me 5y ago
what he is saying is that chinese gov adopted capitalism but state is actually controlling it them - semi indirectly. And they are big enough to be able to influence other big countries and foreign corporations to the point that they are now setting directions of where things are going. Case and point Holywood and self censorship in movies to pander to chinese market They are not saying comunism is good or bad, just stating reality of what is happening
- toolz 5y ago
  The Chinese gov't adopted capitalism? I'm not sure I can believe that anyone believes that, much less agree with it. This is a very direct example of a communist government controlling the messaging of a company, which is antithetical to capitalism. As I understand it, this is happening because Chinese corporations are coerced by the communist regime such that Intel would lose business if they didn't follow the rules coming thru their Chinese partner corporations. Intel is still very much capable of freely choosing to obey those demands or not, which makes them capitalists, but the Chinese corporations being coerced into doing PR for the CCP is not capitalism.
  - 4ggr0 5y ago
    Yes, their party has communist in its name and socially they portray (Authoritarian!-)Communist ideals. But calling their economy communist is really not the whole truth.
    - jpgvm 5y ago
      It's closer to a highly regulated semi-free market like Singapore, many European countries etc. China is interesting in that they seem to take a more data-orientated decision making process when it comes to determining areas where free-market like behaviors would increase efficiency while keeping strategic capabilities under public funding (despite the efficiency losses). I think most other governments manage this balance poorly, in recent decades mostly tending to over-privatize things like utilities and infrastructure. If China manages to continue on it's path of market regulation and paying attention to health of competition etc (it's recent work on giving the SAMR teeth) they are going to be in a very strong position in the coming decades while others play catchup after the privatisation overcorrection. People seem to forget that free markets -require- strong regulation. The tending towards deregulation in US markets has lead to a serious degradation of market competitiveness and thus freedom. My hope is the success of China will drive Western economies to do better so that we can say that democracy is at least as good as autocracy but preferably better. But to do that we need to stop throwing stones from glass houses and actually get down to the business of matching them.
      - 4ggr0 5y ago
        > in recent decades mostly tending to over-privatize things like utilities and infrastructure That's exactly what bothers me about our western democracies, I fail to see why critical things like education, medicine, food and infrastructure(including internet-access) should be privatized. These things should belong to the people. Private companies can feel free to produce and sell other things, but they should, in my opinion, keep their hands from certain things. > they are going to be in a very strong position in the coming decades No doubt. What I currently wonder, is how afraid of this I should be. I'm not from the US so I don't really get emotional when thinking about the US getting weaker, compared to China. And although the US do things I find to be absolutely not okay, China seems even less compatible with my values. > People seem to forget that free markets -require- strong regulation Yes! > But to do that we need to stop throwing stones from glass houses and actually get down to the business of matching them. Totally. All I hear currently are politicians and other high-profile people constantly whining about China, while simultaneously manufacturing everything over there and profiting from their cheap labour. That's also something I find comical about the US - Publicy they denounce China, are constantly fighting in a trade war with each other. But so many things are then imported from China, just think about what Silicon Valley would do if China decides to keep their resources for themselves, or to just block the US. Of course China would probably also have troubes, if the US would then in turn block them. But all I am trying to say is, that I hate the hypocrisy of this so called trade-war. And now, to try to prove that I am not a shill for either side, Tiananmen Square was a tragedy, what's happening with Hong Kong and Taiwan is a bit depressing, Xi Jinping and Winnie Pooh look very similar and what they do to Uyghurs is evil. The US should face more consequences for their oil-wars which they label as "bringing freedom and democracy", patriot act and guantanamo bay are sickening, Edward Snowden and Julian Assange should be freed and given awards, your political "two-party" system is very outdated and overall the US has a really over-blown ego for all the issues it has. Healthcare, social security, wealth-gaps etc. Maybe this was a bit unnecessary, but I notice that you can't say anything not 100% Anti-China without raising suspicion of being a state-sponsored troll or whatever. Maybe I could be labeled as a russian troll, but believe me, I could rant about their government as well. Before I forget, last disclaimer: I am mostly criticizing these countries governments and elites, I have 0 issues with ordinary american or chinese citizens as a whole.
  - me_me_me 5y ago
    > I'm not sure I can believe that anyone believes that, much less agree with it. You can believe in whatever you like, it doesn't change the reality and facts. Its not my opinion, china is a capitalist country run by communist (with Xi totalitarian) government. The companies adhere to market laws/regulations and operate like any other capitalist western corporations. Of note is the fact that as corporation gets to certain size their board must hire certain number of party official who will oversee the business operations. Those people ensure the company is heading in the broad direction set by the party. If they dont, party will bring out the knives and it doesnt matter if you are jack ma or not.

by toolz 5y ago

GavinMcG 5y ago

I think they're blaming capitalism for the moral failings of the capitalist companies who willingly submit to immoral demands.

me_me_me 5y ago

what he is saying is that chinese gov adopted capitalism but state is actually controlling it them - semi indirectly. And they are big enough to be able to influence other big countries and foreign corporations to the point that they are now setting directions of where things are going. Case and point Holywood and self censorship in movies to pander to chinese market They are not saying comunism is good or bad, just stating reality of what is happening

toolz 5y ago
The Chinese gov't adopted capitalism? I'm not sure I can believe that anyone believes that, much less agree with it. This is a very direct example of a communist government controlling the messaging of a company, which is antithetical to capitalism. As I understand it, this is happening because Chinese corporations are coerced by the communist regime such that Intel would lose business if they didn't follow the rules coming thru their Chinese partner corporations. Intel is still very much capable of freely choosing to obey those demands or not, which makes them capitalists, but the Chinese corporations being coerced into doing PR for the CCP is not capitalism.
- 4ggr0 5y ago
  Yes, their party has communist in its name and socially they portray (Authoritarian!-)Communist ideals. But calling their economy communist is really not the whole truth.
  - jpgvm 5y ago
    It's closer to a highly regulated semi-free market like Singapore, many European countries etc. China is interesting in that they seem to take a more data-orientated decision making process when it comes to determining areas where free-market like behaviors would increase efficiency while keeping strategic capabilities under public funding (despite the efficiency losses). I think most other governments manage this balance poorly, in recent decades mostly tending to over-privatize things like utilities and infrastructure. If China manages to continue on it's path of market regulation and paying attention to health of competition etc (it's recent work on giving the SAMR teeth) they are going to be in a very strong position in the coming decades while others play catchup after the privatisation overcorrection. People seem to forget that free markets -require- strong regulation. The tending towards deregulation in US markets has lead to a serious degradation of market competitiveness and thus freedom. My hope is the success of China will drive Western economies to do better so that we can say that democracy is at least as good as autocracy but preferably better. But to do that we need to stop throwing stones from glass houses and actually get down to the business of matching them.
    - 4ggr0 5y ago
      > in recent decades mostly tending to over-privatize things like utilities and infrastructure That's exactly what bothers me about our western democracies, I fail to see why critical things like education, medicine, food and infrastructure(including internet-access) should be privatized. These things should belong to the people. Private companies can feel free to produce and sell other things, but they should, in my opinion, keep their hands from certain things. > they are going to be in a very strong position in the coming decades No doubt. What I currently wonder, is how afraid of this I should be. I'm not from the US so I don't really get emotional when thinking about the US getting weaker, compared to China. And although the US do things I find to be absolutely not okay, China seems even less compatible with my values. > People seem to forget that free markets -require- strong regulation Yes! > But to do that we need to stop throwing stones from glass houses and actually get down to the business of matching them. Totally. All I hear currently are politicians and other high-profile people constantly whining about China, while simultaneously manufacturing everything over there and profiting from their cheap labour. That's also something I find comical about the US - Publicy they denounce China, are constantly fighting in a trade war with each other. But so many things are then imported from China, just think about what Silicon Valley would do if China decides to keep their resources for themselves, or to just block the US. Of course China would probably also have troubes, if the US would then in turn block them. But all I am trying to say is, that I hate the hypocrisy of this so called trade-war. And now, to try to prove that I am not a shill for either side, Tiananmen Square was a tragedy, what's happening with Hong Kong and Taiwan is a bit depressing, Xi Jinping and Winnie Pooh look very similar and what they do to Uyghurs is evil. The US should face more consequences for their oil-wars which they label as "bringing freedom and democracy", patriot act and guantanamo bay are sickening, Edward Snowden and Julian Assange should be freed and given awards, your political "two-party" system is very outdated and overall the US has a really over-blown ego for all the issues it has. Healthcare, social security, wealth-gaps etc. Maybe this was a bit unnecessary, but I notice that you can't say anything not 100% Anti-China without raising suspicion of being a state-sponsored troll or whatever. Maybe I could be labeled as a russian troll, but believe me, I could rant about their government as well. Before I forget, last disclaimer: I am mostly criticizing these countries governments and elites, I have 0 issues with ordinary american or chinese citizens as a whole.
- me_me_me 5y ago
  > I'm not sure I can believe that anyone believes that, much less agree with it. You can believe in whatever you like, it doesn't change the reality and facts. Its not my opinion, china is a capitalist country run by communist (with Xi totalitarian) government. The companies adhere to market laws/regulations and operate like any other capitalist western corporations. Of note is the fact that as corporation gets to certain size their board must hire certain number of party official who will oversee the business operations. Those people ensure the company is heading in the broad direction set by the party. If they dont, party will bring out the knives and it doesnt matter if you are jack ma or not.