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Replace "Venmo" with "Coinbase" and you could have the exact same scenario in the future. "Oops, sorry we messed up, the fraudster's transaction got rejected an

Replace "Venmo" with "Coinbase" and you could have the exact same scenario in the future. "Oops, sorry we messed up, the fraudster's transaction got rejected and he didn't actually send you $50 in BTC like we said he did. What, you already initiated a payment of $50? Tough luck". This is a Venmo problem, not a "fiat currency" problem.

grog454 5y ago
I agree that it is a "Venmo problem", but more broadly it is a "human controlled/authority financial system problem". I do think something analogous could happen with Coinbase, particularly because your interactions with Coinbase require the use of centralized financial systems (bank account info or credit card info). I also think Coinbase holds and can access your private key. Correct me if that's wrong. What's more important is that you aren't required to use Coinbase, or even anything like it, to use cryptocurrency. In fact sites like Coinbase defeat at least some of the point.
- virgilp 5y ago
  > you aren't required to use Coinbase or even anything like it, to use cryptocurrency That's a purely academic argument; It's like saying that "you aren't required to have a Visa or Mastercard card in order to make purchases online". Technically speaking that statement may be true, and you may even find hermits that don't have a card... but, in any practical sense, everybody does, and that's how they do their online purchases.
  - grog454 5y ago
    > you may even find hermits that don't have a card... but, in any practical sense, everybody does, and that's how they do their online purchases. It never stops. :( A person's tiny subset of experience is rarely indicative of anything but that, a subset. I conduct every transaction I can via credit card for two reasons: cash back and protection via the ability to revert fraudulent transactions. But I also have known rational, "techy" (SWE) people who refuse to use them. And I know way better than to attempt to project my experience on "everybody". https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_credit_cards/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_credit...
    - virgilp 5y ago
      I mentioned "in every practical sense" - I'd bet that those that don't have credit cards don't do online purchases either, in the vast majority of cases (>95%). But indeed, that's true in the western world - I might be worng for Africa and Asia/China where mobile-only payments are more prevalent.
      - grog454 5y ago
        France is an example of a western country with < 50% prevalence according to that site. I think you might still be biasing your estimates (the 95%) due to your own experience. Amazon.com, for example, accepts checking accounts and retail purchased gift cards for US residents.
        virgilp 5y ago
        That just credit cards ([edit] From your own source, roughly 85% French had debit cards[3]). According to statista[1], France has ~50% credit card penetration, but roughly ~100% have debit cards. Also, digital buyer penetration was <63% in 2017 and is 78% now[2]. [1]https://www.statista.com/statistics/1098129/credit-cards-and-debit-cards-per-capita-in-france/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1098129/credit-cards-and... [2]https://www.statista.com/forecasts/891312/digital-buyer-penetration-in-france https://www.statista.com/forecasts/891312/digital-buyer-pene... [3]https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_debit_cards/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_debit_...

grog454 5y ago

I agree that it is a "Venmo problem", but more broadly it is a "human controlled/authority financial system problem". I do think something analogous could happen with Coinbase, particularly because your interactions with Coinbase require the use of centralized financial systems (bank account info or credit card info). I also think Coinbase holds and can access your private key. Correct me if that's wrong. What's more important is that you aren't required to use Coinbase, or even anything like it, to use cryptocurrency. In fact sites like Coinbase defeat at least some of the point.

virgilp 5y ago
> you aren't required to use Coinbase or even anything like it, to use cryptocurrency That's a purely academic argument; It's like saying that "you aren't required to have a Visa or Mastercard card in order to make purchases online". Technically speaking that statement may be true, and you may even find hermits that don't have a card... but, in any practical sense, everybody does, and that's how they do their online purchases.
- grog454 5y ago
  > you may even find hermits that don't have a card... but, in any practical sense, everybody does, and that's how they do their online purchases. It never stops. :( A person's tiny subset of experience is rarely indicative of anything but that, a subset. I conduct every transaction I can via credit card for two reasons: cash back and protection via the ability to revert fraudulent transactions. But I also have known rational, "techy" (SWE) people who refuse to use them. And I know way better than to attempt to project my experience on "everybody". https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_credit_cards/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_credit...
  - virgilp 5y ago
    I mentioned "in every practical sense" - I'd bet that those that don't have credit cards don't do online purchases either, in the vast majority of cases (>95%). But indeed, that's true in the western world - I might be worng for Africa and Asia/China where mobile-only payments are more prevalent.
    - grog454 5y ago
      France is an example of a western country with < 50% prevalence according to that site. I think you might still be biasing your estimates (the 95%) due to your own experience. Amazon.com, for example, accepts checking accounts and retail purchased gift cards for US residents.
      - virgilp 5y ago
        That just credit cards ([edit] From your own source, roughly 85% French had debit cards[3]). According to statista[1], France has ~50% credit card penetration, but roughly ~100% have debit cards. Also, digital buyer penetration was <63% in 2017 and is 78% now[2]. [1]https://www.statista.com/statistics/1098129/credit-cards-and-debit-cards-per-capita-in-france/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1098129/credit-cards-and... [2]https://www.statista.com/forecasts/891312/digital-buyer-penetration-in-france https://www.statista.com/forecasts/891312/digital-buyer-pene... [3]https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_debit_cards/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_debit_...