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I'll take the bait-bait - >- Standard of living has increased incomprehensibly over the last 40 years. So did in Taiwan, SK, Japan, Hong Kong, Sinagpore, etc.

I'll take the bait-bait - >- Standard of living has increased incomprehensibly over the last 40 years. So did in Taiwan, SK, Japan, Hong Kong, Sinagpore, etc. in the 50s-90s. China is actually behind, and was slow to develop because of the mess that the revolution caused. >- Safe to walk around at night. Imagine walking around downtown NYC or LA at 3am without feeling like you're gonna get mugged. As above, the authoritarianism didn't cause this. Walk around 3am at night in any city in Japan, SK or Taiwan, it is the same. Unfortunately, that's not the case in HK anymore, especially if you look young, as you'll probably be treated as an insurgent by the police. >Belt & Road might have some predatory loans but they're better than Predator drones. Since we're playing et tu now, how about all the bases in the South China Seas and the border skirmishes with India? By all indications, if the US was not the world police, then China's (or Russia's) response, judging by their recent actions, would have been even worse. You also failed to mention China's role in the Korean war, in addition to Vietnam. >- COVID has been well-controlled. Wuhan escape was inevitable, just look at how fast variants have spread even with (initially) 70-90% effective vaccines. Hard to see COVID as a defence for China given that most of the world is still ticked off that China covered everything up, twice, leading to pandemic both times. It's surprising that they didn't learn the mistakes of SARS, and here we are with SARS-2. >- Hong Kong Colony was leased to Britain under duress and returned by mutual and legal agreement; there is no independence argument here This really betrays your sympathies. You don't even consider that what the people of Hong Kong desires and their right to self-determination. Hong Kong is more than just a few islands and a bit of land hanging off of the mainland. >- The last invasion of Taiwan was by the KMT when they fled there in 1949. Today's military provocation consists of flying some jets into an ADIZ (50% of which actually covers Fujian province in China) or shooting some ordnance into the sea. What is even your point here? Are you trying to say that it's actually Taiwan provoking China?

philliphaydon 5y ago
> What is even your point here? Are you trying to say that it's actually Taiwan provoking China? You could have mentioned the CCP attacking and attempted invasion of Taiwan in 1954 and 1958.
- wonnage 5y ago
  The CPC were trying to finish the war and the KMT were a military dictatorship that had just overrun the island. Presumably at this point an outsider country has no real horse in this race, except that the KMT dictatorship was massacring its people because they were communists, while the CPC was doing the opposite, hence the American support. You have to understand that things are different now because Taiwan evolved into a successful democracy, but that was not a given pre-1980s or so.
  - philliphaydon 5y ago
    The civil war ended in 1949. So this was an attempt of invasion after the end. What happened after 1949 in both Taiwan and China was horrible. But thankfully Taiwan is thriving now. If only could get over it’s illegitimate claim to Taiwan so my family and I can feel safe.
    - dirtyid 5y ago
      Not only did civil war not end in 1949 (or 2022) but ROC implemented port closure policy to blockade PRC coastal shipping in 1949 (lasting 30+ years), which led to Tuapse incidence in 1954, which led to first and second strait TW crisis you referred to in 1954 and 58. Both "invasions" were direct fallout from ROC provoked aggression, and distills the geopolitical essence for why the civil war will continue until one side becomes completely subservient to the other for security reasons.
wonnage 5y ago
> So did in Taiwan, SK, Japan, Hong Kong, Sinagpore, etc. in the 50s-90s. China is actually behind, and was slow to develop because of the mess that the revolution caused. I'm certainly not a Great Leap Forward apologist, but Deng salvaging the mess in the 80s-90s and the subsequent development is a great achievement. > As above, the authoritarianism didn't cause this. Walk around 3am at night in any city in Japan, SK or Taiwan, it is the same. I'm just citing Good Things about China since the parent seemed to be convinced there weren't any. Not making a value judgement on how it was achieved. > Since we're playing et tu now, how about all the bases in the South China Seas and the border skirmishes with India? By all indications, if the US was not the world police, then China's (or Russia's) response, judging by their recent actions, would have been even worse. You also failed to mention China's role in the Korean war, in addition to Vietnam. Some border skirmishes vs an uninterrupted history of global hot, cold, and proxy wars since WWII, you tell me which is more significant? > Hard to see COVID as a defence for China given that most of the world is still ticked off that China covered everything up, twice, leading to pandemic both times. It's surprising that they didn't learn the mistakes of SARS, and here we are with SARS-2. The gene sequence was released on this day (1/11) in 2020. There had been 41 cases and one death at that point. Look at the American virus response and tell me if any city would've locked down at that point. There was no coverup, it's simply an incredibly contagious virus. > This really betrays your sympathies. You don't even consider that what the people of Hong Kong desires and their right to self-determination. Hong Kong is more than just a few islands and a bit of land hanging off of the mainland. We'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't think the majority of Hong Kongers wants to secede from the mainland, even in a magical world where they wouldn't have to fight an independence war and subsequent complete economic/diplomatic isolation to get it. > What is even your point here? Are you trying to say that it's actually Taiwan provoking China? I'm saying that it's dumb to treat flying into a corner of a giant rectangle that's mostly not covering your own land as some major provocation

philliphaydon 5y ago

> What is even your point here? Are you trying to say that it's actually Taiwan provoking China? You could have mentioned the CCP attacking and attempted invasion of Taiwan in 1954 and 1958.

wonnage 5y ago
The CPC were trying to finish the war and the KMT were a military dictatorship that had just overrun the island. Presumably at this point an outsider country has no real horse in this race, except that the KMT dictatorship was massacring its people because they were communists, while the CPC was doing the opposite, hence the American support. You have to understand that things are different now because Taiwan evolved into a successful democracy, but that was not a given pre-1980s or so.
- philliphaydon 5y ago
  The civil war ended in 1949. So this was an attempt of invasion after the end. What happened after 1949 in both Taiwan and China was horrible. But thankfully Taiwan is thriving now. If only could get over it’s illegitimate claim to Taiwan so my family and I can feel safe.
  - dirtyid 5y ago
    Not only did civil war not end in 1949 (or 2022) but ROC implemented port closure policy to blockade PRC coastal shipping in 1949 (lasting 30+ years), which led to Tuapse incidence in 1954, which led to first and second strait TW crisis you referred to in 1954 and 58. Both "invasions" were direct fallout from ROC provoked aggression, and distills the geopolitical essence for why the civil war will continue until one side becomes completely subservient to the other for security reasons.

wonnage 5y ago

> So did in Taiwan, SK, Japan, Hong Kong, Sinagpore, etc. in the 50s-90s. China is actually behind, and was slow to develop because of the mess that the revolution caused. I'm certainly not a Great Leap Forward apologist, but Deng salvaging the mess in the 80s-90s and the subsequent development is a great achievement. > As above, the authoritarianism didn't cause this. Walk around 3am at night in any city in Japan, SK or Taiwan, it is the same. I'm just citing Good Things about China since the parent seemed to be convinced there weren't any. Not making a value judgement on how it was achieved. > Since we're playing et tu now, how about all the bases in the South China Seas and the border skirmishes with India? By all indications, if the US was not the world police, then China's (or Russia's) response, judging by their recent actions, would have been even worse. You also failed to mention China's role in the Korean war, in addition to Vietnam. Some border skirmishes vs an uninterrupted history of global hot, cold, and proxy wars since WWII, you tell me which is more significant? > Hard to see COVID as a defence for China given that most of the world is still ticked off that China covered everything up, twice, leading to pandemic both times. It's surprising that they didn't learn the mistakes of SARS, and here we are with SARS-2. The gene sequence was released on this day (1/11) in 2020. There had been 41 cases and one death at that point. Look at the American virus response and tell me if any city would've locked down at that point. There was no coverup, it's simply an incredibly contagious virus. > This really betrays your sympathies. You don't even consider that what the people of Hong Kong desires and their right to self-determination. Hong Kong is more than just a few islands and a bit of land hanging off of the mainland. We'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't think the majority of Hong Kongers wants to secede from the mainland, even in a magical world where they wouldn't have to fight an independence war and subsequent complete economic/diplomatic isolation to get it. > What is even your point here? Are you trying to say that it's actually Taiwan provoking China? I'm saying that it's dumb to treat flying into a corner of a giant rectangle that's mostly not covering your own land as some major provocation