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>Well, things like the normalization of everyday life (nothing like under Maoism where everybody was paranoid and millions died, people live regular lives, even

>Well, things like the normalization of everyday life (nothing like under Maoism where everybody was paranoid and millions died, people live regular lives, even with the authoritative rule of the party), opening up to businesses, lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty, big health and education access, huge infrastructure updates and development, great technical and scientific progress, becoming the world's number two economy up from being outside even the top 10 30 years ago, and so on. This is more-or-less how Germany looked like in the 1930s. Really scary that some people don't realise the parallels.

platinumrad 5y ago
Really scary that some people don't realize the parallels between Germany in the 1930s and, uh, people not starving anymore.
- starfallg 5y ago
  Germans were starving in the 20s too due to the outcome of WWI. The Nazi 'fixed' that. And since we're talking about people starving, why don't we talk about the Great Leap forward and the massive famines caused by CCP policy?
  - platinumrad 5y ago
    > Germans were starving in the 20s too due to the outcome of WWI. The Nazi 'fixed' that. It sure seems like a reach to say that China in the 2020s is like Germany in the 1930s because Chinese were starving in the 1960s (and, to lesser extents, the 1970s and 1980s) and Germans were starving in the 1920s. Wouldn't it follow that China in the 1970s (or 1980s or 1990s) is analogous to Germany in 1930s? Oh wait, of course not, because it's an absurd analogy in the first place. > And since we're talking about people starving, why don't we talk about the Great Leap forward and the massive famines caused by CCP policy? Sure, but I'm not sure what there is to say about it as I don't think anyone is going to argue that the Great Leap Forward was sensible policy or that famine is a good thing...
    - starfallg 5y ago
      It's an absurd analogy only if you're in denial about the horrors of extreme nationalism or ideologies coupled with authoritarianism. You even seem to deny that today's CCP is the same CCP as the one that cause the Great Leap Forward. In many ways, the CCP of today is more like the CCP of the 50s than the 90s.
      - platinumrad 5y ago
        I agree that the CCP is, on balance, worse (e.g. more socially repressive) today than in the 90s but I don't think it's about to return to the bad old days of Red Guards and struggle sessions, or the really bad old days of farm collectivization and mass famine. I also don't think comparisons to Weimar or Nazi Germany are remotely appropriate. The state nutures nationalism, but so do most others. (B2 bombers flying over sports games? Subtle!) The major difference is many Chinese have experienced a sharp increase in standard of living within their lifetimes, so they are more likely to be nationalistic true believers. Ordinarily, this would subside in later generations, but my fear is that western jingoism and igorance about China is delaying or even reversing this process. There is a recent research paper which presents data showing Chinese international students were less likely to adopt liberal positions when confronted with anti-China attitudes. This matches my anecdotal experiences where people proselytizing the superiority of western systems of government (and/or the evils of the Chinese one) get basic facts wrong and completely alienate their targets.
      - coldtea 5y ago
        "It's an absurd analogy only if" <ad-hominem>
  - coldtea 5y ago
    >Germans were starving in the 20s too due to the outcome of WWI. The Nazi 'fixed' that. Yeah, so? Many countries "fixed that" - the New Deal fixed that for the starving Americans for example. Post-war German government "fixed that" for starving post-WWII Germans. Fixing poverty doesn't imply worth authoritarianism. Especially since China went to more open from the 60s to 2020, not less, so the opposite direction. >And since we're talking about people starving, why don't we talk about the Great Leap forward and the massive famines caused by CCP policy? They're somewhat like the famines caused by the British imperial policy in India, but in this case due to bad policy, not intentional colonial profiteering. And, Chinese policy and results went to the other direction, not just eliminating those famines, but raising a population 2 times the US into middle class, and raising more from proverty.
- ginko 5y ago
  I wouldn't draw the parallels between China today and Germany in the 1930s, but I do see similarities to Germany before WWI. Like China Germany just went through a break-neck pace industrialization to the point where it became a major competitor to the other great powers. It even had its own 'century of humiliation' in the 17th century starting with the Thirty Years' War. There was a lot of nationalism and ressentiment in Germany towards France and UK at the time and I do feel similar things are going on in China today.
  - platinumrad 5y ago
    This is a much more reasonable comparison, but I think the big difference is that the mad imperial dash already happened. (Also, nuclear weapons, but let's leave that aside for now.) Some like to call initiatives like Belt and Road "soft colonialism" but doing so completely undersells the massive brutality and enormous wealth extraction of what these people would presumably call "hard colonialism." In other words, I don't think there's enough to fight over for major powers to go to war.
  - starfallg 5y ago
    Economically, yes, there are parallels to pre-WWI Germany, but politically (in the Xi era) the zeitgeist is more similar to pre-WWII Germany.
coldtea 5y ago
>This is more-or-less how Germany looked like in the 1930s. And if it stayed at that, it wouldn't be much different that most other countries at the time - perhaps even less lethal (due to not having colonies) and more progressive than some (the early program was New Deal style, and the talk against Jews was toned-down until later in the 30s). And China itself looked much worse (and worse much more repressive for its citizens) in the 60s up to the 90s, so there's that. Whereas Germany went the other way: more repressive, more bloody, less wellbeing for the people (as resources started going to millitary preparations), and finally war and devastation. >Really scary that some people don't realise the parallels. Godwin's law much?
- starfallg 5y ago
  > And if it stayed at that, it wouldn't be much different that most other countries at the time If you are talking about the rise of both the authoritarian left and right, then you have a point. Germany (and Italy) were the large nations that were swept up in this populist wave, and that is what is being reflected in the political zeitgist in China today. >Godwin's law much? It's kinda of a meme to invoke it. But AFAIK, it doesn't apply to serious (i.e. no lighthearted) political discussion.

platinumrad 5y ago

Really scary that some people don't realize the parallels between Germany in the 1930s and, uh, people not starving anymore.

starfallg 5y ago
Germans were starving in the 20s too due to the outcome of WWI. The Nazi 'fixed' that. And since we're talking about people starving, why don't we talk about the Great Leap forward and the massive famines caused by CCP policy?
- platinumrad 5y ago
  > Germans were starving in the 20s too due to the outcome of WWI. The Nazi 'fixed' that. It sure seems like a reach to say that China in the 2020s is like Germany in the 1930s because Chinese were starving in the 1960s (and, to lesser extents, the 1970s and 1980s) and Germans were starving in the 1920s. Wouldn't it follow that China in the 1970s (or 1980s or 1990s) is analogous to Germany in 1930s? Oh wait, of course not, because it's an absurd analogy in the first place. > And since we're talking about people starving, why don't we talk about the Great Leap forward and the massive famines caused by CCP policy? Sure, but I'm not sure what there is to say about it as I don't think anyone is going to argue that the Great Leap Forward was sensible policy or that famine is a good thing...
  - starfallg 5y ago
    It's an absurd analogy only if you're in denial about the horrors of extreme nationalism or ideologies coupled with authoritarianism. You even seem to deny that today's CCP is the same CCP as the one that cause the Great Leap Forward. In many ways, the CCP of today is more like the CCP of the 50s than the 90s.
    - platinumrad 5y ago
      I agree that the CCP is, on balance, worse (e.g. more socially repressive) today than in the 90s but I don't think it's about to return to the bad old days of Red Guards and struggle sessions, or the really bad old days of farm collectivization and mass famine. I also don't think comparisons to Weimar or Nazi Germany are remotely appropriate. The state nutures nationalism, but so do most others. (B2 bombers flying over sports games? Subtle!) The major difference is many Chinese have experienced a sharp increase in standard of living within their lifetimes, so they are more likely to be nationalistic true believers. Ordinarily, this would subside in later generations, but my fear is that western jingoism and igorance about China is delaying or even reversing this process. There is a recent research paper which presents data showing Chinese international students were less likely to adopt liberal positions when confronted with anti-China attitudes. This matches my anecdotal experiences where people proselytizing the superiority of western systems of government (and/or the evils of the Chinese one) get basic facts wrong and completely alienate their targets.
    - coldtea 5y ago
      "It's an absurd analogy only if" <ad-hominem>
- coldtea 5y ago
  >Germans were starving in the 20s too due to the outcome of WWI. The Nazi 'fixed' that. Yeah, so? Many countries "fixed that" - the New Deal fixed that for the starving Americans for example. Post-war German government "fixed that" for starving post-WWII Germans. Fixing poverty doesn't imply worth authoritarianism. Especially since China went to more open from the 60s to 2020, not less, so the opposite direction. >And since we're talking about people starving, why don't we talk about the Great Leap forward and the massive famines caused by CCP policy? They're somewhat like the famines caused by the British imperial policy in India, but in this case due to bad policy, not intentional colonial profiteering. And, Chinese policy and results went to the other direction, not just eliminating those famines, but raising a population 2 times the US into middle class, and raising more from proverty.
ginko 5y ago
I wouldn't draw the parallels between China today and Germany in the 1930s, but I do see similarities to Germany before WWI. Like China Germany just went through a break-neck pace industrialization to the point where it became a major competitor to the other great powers. It even had its own 'century of humiliation' in the 17th century starting with the Thirty Years' War. There was a lot of nationalism and ressentiment in Germany towards France and UK at the time and I do feel similar things are going on in China today.
- platinumrad 5y ago
  This is a much more reasonable comparison, but I think the big difference is that the mad imperial dash already happened. (Also, nuclear weapons, but let's leave that aside for now.) Some like to call initiatives like Belt and Road "soft colonialism" but doing so completely undersells the massive brutality and enormous wealth extraction of what these people would presumably call "hard colonialism." In other words, I don't think there's enough to fight over for major powers to go to war.
- starfallg 5y ago
  Economically, yes, there are parallels to pre-WWI Germany, but politically (in the Xi era) the zeitgeist is more similar to pre-WWII Germany.

coldtea 5y ago

>This is more-or-less how Germany looked like in the 1930s. And if it stayed at that, it wouldn't be much different that most other countries at the time - perhaps even less lethal (due to not having colonies) and more progressive than some (the early program was New Deal style, and the talk against Jews was toned-down until later in the 30s). And China itself looked much worse (and worse much more repressive for its citizens) in the 60s up to the 90s, so there's that. Whereas Germany went the other way: more repressive, more bloody, less wellbeing for the people (as resources started going to millitary preparations), and finally war and devastation. >Really scary that some people don't realise the parallels. Godwin's law much?

starfallg 5y ago
> And if it stayed at that, it wouldn't be much different that most other countries at the time If you are talking about the rise of both the authoritarian left and right, then you have a point. Germany (and Italy) were the large nations that were swept up in this populist wave, and that is what is being reflected in the political zeitgist in China today. >Godwin's law much? It's kinda of a meme to invoke it. But AFAIK, it doesn't apply to serious (i.e. no lighthearted) political discussion.