5 ms·

It would help if you can list the good facts, especially when it comes to free access of information by citizens, or their desire to swallow up the independence

It would help if you can list the good facts, especially when it comes to free access of information by citizens, or their desire to swallow up the independence of Hong Kong and Taiwan.

coldtea 5y ago
Well, things like the normalization of everyday life (nothing like under Maoism where everybody was paranoid and millions died, people live regular lives, even with the authoritative rule of the party), opening up to businesses, lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty, big health and education access, huge infrastructure updates and development, great technical and scientific progress, becoming the world's number two economy up from being outside even the top 10 30 years ago, and so on. And Hong Kong is also not exactly a noble history of a population determined to live free, but the result of a 100-year imposed lease of a whole area (as if it was some property) by a colonial power who deemed it a valuable port. Now, in 2022 most/many HKers want to be indepedent of RPC, but if it wasn't for that shady colonial past, Hong Kong would be part of China today, no?
- starfallg 5y ago
  >Well, things like the normalization of everyday life (nothing like under Maoism where everybody was paranoid and millions died, people live regular lives, even with the authoritative rule of the party), opening up to businesses, lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty, big health and education access, huge infrastructure updates and development, great technical and scientific progress, becoming the world's number two economy up from being outside even the top 10 30 years ago, and so on. This is more-or-less how Germany looked like in the 1930s. Really scary that some people don't realise the parallels.
  - platinumrad 5y ago
    Really scary that some people don't realize the parallels between Germany in the 1930s and, uh, people not starving anymore.
    - starfallg 5y ago
      Germans were starving in the 20s too due to the outcome of WWI. The Nazi 'fixed' that. And since we're talking about people starving, why don't we talk about the Great Leap forward and the massive famines caused by CCP policy?
      - platinumrad 5y ago
        > Germans were starving in the 20s too due to the outcome of WWI. The Nazi 'fixed' that. It sure seems like a reach to say that China in the 2020s is like Germany in the 1930s because Chinese were starving in the 1960s (and, to lesser extents, the 1970s and 1980s) and Germans were starving in the 1920s. Wouldn't it follow that China in the 1970s (or 1980s or 1990s) is analogous to Germany in 1930s? Oh wait, of course not, because it's an absurd analogy in the first place. > And since we're talking about people starving, why don't we talk about the Great Leap forward and the massive famines caused by CCP policy? Sure, but I'm not sure what there is to say about it as I don't think anyone is going to argue that the Great Leap Forward was sensible policy or that famine is a good thing...
        starfallg 5y ago
        It's an absurd analogy only if you're in denial about the horrors of extreme nationalism or ideologies coupled with authoritarianism. You even seem to deny that today's CCP is the same CCP as the one that cause the Great Leap Forward. In many ways, the CCP of today is more like the CCP of the 50s than the 90s.
        platinumrad 5y ago
        I agree that the CCP is, on balance, worse (e.g. more socially repressive) today than in the 90s but I don't think it's about to return to the bad old days of Red Guards and struggle sessions, or the really bad old days of farm collectivization and mass famine. I also don't think comparisons to Weimar or Nazi Germany are remotely appropriate. The state nutures nationalism, but so do most others. (B2 bombers flying over sports games? Subtle!) The major difference is many Chinese have experienced a sharp increase in standard of living within their lifetimes, so they are more likely to be nationalistic true believers. Ordinarily, this would subside in later generations, but my fear is that western jingoism and igorance about China is delaying or even reversing this process. There is a recent research paper which presents data showing Chinese international students were less likely to adopt liberal positions when confronted with anti-China attitudes. This matches my anecdotal experiences where people proselytizing the superiority of western systems of government (and/or the evils of the Chinese one) get basic facts wrong and completely alienate their targets.
  - coldtea 5y ago
    >This is more-or-less how Germany looked like in the 1930s. And if it stayed at that, it wouldn't be much different that most other countries at the time - perhaps even less lethal (due to not having colonies) and more progressive than some (the early program was New Deal style, and the talk against Jews was toned-down until later in the 30s). And China itself looked much worse (and worse much more repressive for its citizens) in the 60s up to the 90s, so there's that. Whereas Germany went the other way: more repressive, more bloody, less wellbeing for the people (as resources started going to millitary preparations), and finally war and devastation. >Really scary that some people don't realise the parallels. Godwin's law much?
    - starfallg 5y ago
      > And if it stayed at that, it wouldn't be much different that most other countries at the time If you are talking about the rise of both the authoritarian left and right, then you have a point. Germany (and Italy) were the large nations that were swept up in this populist wave, and that is what is being reflected in the political zeitgist in China today. >Godwin's law much? It's kinda of a meme to invoke it. But AFAIK, it doesn't apply to serious (i.e. no lighthearted) political discussion.
wonnage 5y ago
I'll take the bait: - Standard of living has increased incomprehensibly over the last 40 years. - Huge cities with incredible culture and history. - Safe to walk around at night. Imagine walking around downtown NYC or LA at 3am without feeling like you're gonna get mugged. - Despite all the saber rattling with neighbors Taiwan, Japan, and India, and quarterly tank parades, not involved in hot wars since a misguided invasion of Vietnam in the 80s. Belt & Road might have some predatory loans but they're better than Predator drones. - COVID has been well-controlled. Wuhan escape was inevitable, just look at how fast variants have spread even with (initially) 70-90% effective vaccines. - Hong Kong Colony was leased to Britain under duress and returned by mutual and legal agreement; there is no independence argument here - The last invasion of Taiwan was by the KMT when they fled there in 1949. Today's military provocation consists of flying some jets into an ADIZ (50% of which actually covers Fujian province in China) or shooting some ordnance into the sea.
- starfallg 5y ago
  I'll take the bait-bait - >- Standard of living has increased incomprehensibly over the last 40 years. So did in Taiwan, SK, Japan, Hong Kong, Sinagpore, etc. in the 50s-90s. China is actually behind, and was slow to develop because of the mess that the revolution caused. >- Safe to walk around at night. Imagine walking around downtown NYC or LA at 3am without feeling like you're gonna get mugged. As above, the authoritarianism didn't cause this. Walk around 3am at night in any city in Japan, SK or Taiwan, it is the same. Unfortunately, that's not the case in HK anymore, especially if you look young, as you'll probably be treated as an insurgent by the police. >Belt & Road might have some predatory loans but they're better than Predator drones. Since we're playing et tu now, how about all the bases in the South China Seas and the border skirmishes with India? By all indications, if the US was not the world police, then China's (or Russia's) response, judging by their recent actions, would have been even worse. You also failed to mention China's role in the Korean war, in addition to Vietnam. >- COVID has been well-controlled. Wuhan escape was inevitable, just look at how fast variants have spread even with (initially) 70-90% effective vaccines. Hard to see COVID as a defence for China given that most of the world is still ticked off that China covered everything up, twice, leading to pandemic both times. It's surprising that they didn't learn the mistakes of SARS, and here we are with SARS-2. >- Hong Kong Colony was leased to Britain under duress and returned by mutual and legal agreement; there is no independence argument here This really betrays your sympathies. You don't even consider that what the people of Hong Kong desires and their right to self-determination. Hong Kong is more than just a few islands and a bit of land hanging off of the mainland. >- The last invasion of Taiwan was by the KMT when they fled there in 1949. Today's military provocation consists of flying some jets into an ADIZ (50% of which actually covers Fujian province in China) or shooting some ordnance into the sea. What is even your point here? Are you trying to say that it's actually Taiwan provoking China?
divbzero 5y ago
Just for context, GP’s original comment suggested that people who say they want to be rational or neutral about China are only interested in the bad facts about China, an attitude that leads to more misunderstanding. Sibling comments here have taken a generous attempt at assuming good faith and listing some good facts.

It would help if you can list the good facts, especially when it comes to free access of information by citizens, or their desire to swallow up the independence of Hong Kong and Taiwan.

coldtea 5y ago

Well, things like the normalization of everyday life (nothing like under Maoism where everybody was paranoid and millions died, people live regular lives, even with the authoritative rule of the party), opening up to businesses, lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty, big health and education access, huge infrastructure updates and development, great technical and scientific progress, becoming the world's number two economy up from being outside even the top 10 30 years ago, and so on. And Hong Kong is also not exactly a noble history of a population determined to live free, but the result of a 100-year imposed lease of a whole area (as if it was some property) by a colonial power who deemed it a valuable port. Now, in 2022 most/many HKers want to be indepedent of RPC, but if it wasn't for that shady colonial past, Hong Kong would be part of China today, no?

starfallg 5y ago
>Well, things like the normalization of everyday life (nothing like under Maoism where everybody was paranoid and millions died, people live regular lives, even with the authoritative rule of the party), opening up to businesses, lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty, big health and education access, huge infrastructure updates and development, great technical and scientific progress, becoming the world's number two economy up from being outside even the top 10 30 years ago, and so on. This is more-or-less how Germany looked like in the 1930s. Really scary that some people don't realise the parallels.
- platinumrad 5y ago
  Really scary that some people don't realize the parallels between Germany in the 1930s and, uh, people not starving anymore.
  - starfallg 5y ago
    Germans were starving in the 20s too due to the outcome of WWI. The Nazi 'fixed' that. And since we're talking about people starving, why don't we talk about the Great Leap forward and the massive famines caused by CCP policy?
    - platinumrad 5y ago
      > Germans were starving in the 20s too due to the outcome of WWI. The Nazi 'fixed' that. It sure seems like a reach to say that China in the 2020s is like Germany in the 1930s because Chinese were starving in the 1960s (and, to lesser extents, the 1970s and 1980s) and Germans were starving in the 1920s. Wouldn't it follow that China in the 1970s (or 1980s or 1990s) is analogous to Germany in 1930s? Oh wait, of course not, because it's an absurd analogy in the first place. > And since we're talking about people starving, why don't we talk about the Great Leap forward and the massive famines caused by CCP policy? Sure, but I'm not sure what there is to say about it as I don't think anyone is going to argue that the Great Leap Forward was sensible policy or that famine is a good thing...
      - starfallg 5y ago
        It's an absurd analogy only if you're in denial about the horrors of extreme nationalism or ideologies coupled with authoritarianism. You even seem to deny that today's CCP is the same CCP as the one that cause the Great Leap Forward. In many ways, the CCP of today is more like the CCP of the 50s than the 90s.
        platinumrad 5y ago
        I agree that the CCP is, on balance, worse (e.g. more socially repressive) today than in the 90s but I don't think it's about to return to the bad old days of Red Guards and struggle sessions, or the really bad old days of farm collectivization and mass famine. I also don't think comparisons to Weimar or Nazi Germany are remotely appropriate. The state nutures nationalism, but so do most others. (B2 bombers flying over sports games? Subtle!) The major difference is many Chinese have experienced a sharp increase in standard of living within their lifetimes, so they are more likely to be nationalistic true believers. Ordinarily, this would subside in later generations, but my fear is that western jingoism and igorance about China is delaying or even reversing this process. There is a recent research paper which presents data showing Chinese international students were less likely to adopt liberal positions when confronted with anti-China attitudes. This matches my anecdotal experiences where people proselytizing the superiority of western systems of government (and/or the evils of the Chinese one) get basic facts wrong and completely alienate their targets.
- coldtea 5y ago
  >This is more-or-less how Germany looked like in the 1930s. And if it stayed at that, it wouldn't be much different that most other countries at the time - perhaps even less lethal (due to not having colonies) and more progressive than some (the early program was New Deal style, and the talk against Jews was toned-down until later in the 30s). And China itself looked much worse (and worse much more repressive for its citizens) in the 60s up to the 90s, so there's that. Whereas Germany went the other way: more repressive, more bloody, less wellbeing for the people (as resources started going to millitary preparations), and finally war and devastation. >Really scary that some people don't realise the parallels. Godwin's law much?
  - starfallg 5y ago
    > And if it stayed at that, it wouldn't be much different that most other countries at the time If you are talking about the rise of both the authoritarian left and right, then you have a point. Germany (and Italy) were the large nations that were swept up in this populist wave, and that is what is being reflected in the political zeitgist in China today. >Godwin's law much? It's kinda of a meme to invoke it. But AFAIK, it doesn't apply to serious (i.e. no lighthearted) political discussion.

wonnage 5y ago

I'll take the bait: - Standard of living has increased incomprehensibly over the last 40 years. - Huge cities with incredible culture and history. - Safe to walk around at night. Imagine walking around downtown NYC or LA at 3am without feeling like you're gonna get mugged. - Despite all the saber rattling with neighbors Taiwan, Japan, and India, and quarterly tank parades, not involved in hot wars since a misguided invasion of Vietnam in the 80s. Belt & Road might have some predatory loans but they're better than Predator drones. - COVID has been well-controlled. Wuhan escape was inevitable, just look at how fast variants have spread even with (initially) 70-90% effective vaccines. - Hong Kong Colony was leased to Britain under duress and returned by mutual and legal agreement; there is no independence argument here - The last invasion of Taiwan was by the KMT when they fled there in 1949. Today's military provocation consists of flying some jets into an ADIZ (50% of which actually covers Fujian province in China) or shooting some ordnance into the sea.

starfallg 5y ago
I'll take the bait-bait - >- Standard of living has increased incomprehensibly over the last 40 years. So did in Taiwan, SK, Japan, Hong Kong, Sinagpore, etc. in the 50s-90s. China is actually behind, and was slow to develop because of the mess that the revolution caused. >- Safe to walk around at night. Imagine walking around downtown NYC or LA at 3am without feeling like you're gonna get mugged. As above, the authoritarianism didn't cause this. Walk around 3am at night in any city in Japan, SK or Taiwan, it is the same. Unfortunately, that's not the case in HK anymore, especially if you look young, as you'll probably be treated as an insurgent by the police. >Belt & Road might have some predatory loans but they're better than Predator drones. Since we're playing et tu now, how about all the bases in the South China Seas and the border skirmishes with India? By all indications, if the US was not the world police, then China's (or Russia's) response, judging by their recent actions, would have been even worse. You also failed to mention China's role in the Korean war, in addition to Vietnam. >- COVID has been well-controlled. Wuhan escape was inevitable, just look at how fast variants have spread even with (initially) 70-90% effective vaccines. Hard to see COVID as a defence for China given that most of the world is still ticked off that China covered everything up, twice, leading to pandemic both times. It's surprising that they didn't learn the mistakes of SARS, and here we are with SARS-2. >- Hong Kong Colony was leased to Britain under duress and returned by mutual and legal agreement; there is no independence argument here This really betrays your sympathies. You don't even consider that what the people of Hong Kong desires and their right to self-determination. Hong Kong is more than just a few islands and a bit of land hanging off of the mainland. >- The last invasion of Taiwan was by the KMT when they fled there in 1949. Today's military provocation consists of flying some jets into an ADIZ (50% of which actually covers Fujian province in China) or shooting some ordnance into the sea. What is even your point here? Are you trying to say that it's actually Taiwan provoking China?

divbzero 5y ago

Just for context, GP’s original comment suggested that people who say they want to be rational or neutral about China are only interested in the bad facts about China, an attitude that leads to more misunderstanding. Sibling comments here have taken a generous attempt at assuming good faith and listing some good facts.