7 ms·

Modern War Institute: We Ignore the Human Domain at Our Own Peril

54 points by Phithagoras 5y ago

a0-prw 5y ago
"Further, where DoD and the US government have to compete in the human domain without sacrificing key values or crossing ethical lines, our adversaries often show no such constraint, as evidenced by the growing number of examples of their efforts to destabilize and paralyze free societies" Right there, hypocrite. If you want to prevail in the human domain, prosecute your war criminals, beginning with Dubya, Clinton, Obama, Trump and Biden. You've already lost.
- senectus1 5y ago
  has there ever been a leader that has prosecuted a war that isn't named as a "war criminal" ? Not trying to diminish your statement, but what defines a war criminal? If anything can then the term has no meaning, it turns any act of war into a criminal act. How do we make that term actually MEAN something again? Do they all have to be "Hitlers" or "Pol Pot's" ? surely not...
  - yesenadam 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity
    - senectus1 5y ago
      yup, and can you name or give examples of a single act of war since those were defined and outlined that hasn't breached them?
  - neltnerb 5y ago
    It's actually pretty well defined, the issue is that the winners rarely see a reason to hold themselves accountable. https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml The US agreed to this definition, it's pretty broad. Perhaps too broad, but I mean, look at the examples...
  - roenxi 5y ago
    On the face of it, making all people who wage offensive war criminal seems like a good idea. Do you have an objection to the idea? There is only shaky moral ground for the US to stand on here, they've been the major force of war and destruction in the world for the last 50 years. No question in my mind that the individuals involved are monsters, but there is a good argument that maybe all the alternative systems are worse.
    - senectus1 5y ago
      only that it takes a term that once meant "Hitler/Pol Pot" etc. Monsters on truly large and horrifying scales... into something that is watered down to, well, the politics of war. Much like the word Terrorism. Its an almost worthless term.
- DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
  This applies to all leaders of all countries. As they say don't hate the player, hate the game. The player is the politician, or the party. The game is Capitalism and international tax law: Treasure Islands: Tax Havens and the Men who Stole the World: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Islands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Islands ^^ hardly any developed country comes off as good in this book and what brought us here is how we've been distributing wealth since the industrialization. Everyone's a hypocrite because it's the number #1 rule of "human-club". The more power one has, the more they'll be forced to square that circle. I still agree that anyone who has power should be put under more pressure than the rest, so punching the US (as a country not its people) is justified, but don't forget about countries like Germany, France, Russia, China, UK when dishing out accusations about hypocriticism. "The real problem of humanity is the following: we have Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions, and god-like technology." -- Edward O. Wilson, 1929
  - TheGigaChad 5y ago
    [dead]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tablespoon 5y ago
  >> "Further, where DoD and the US government have to compete in the human domain without sacrificing key values or crossing ethical lines, our adversaries often show no such constraint, as evidenced by the growing number of examples of their efforts to destabilize and paralyze free societies" > Right there, hypocrite. If you want to prevail in the human domain, prosecute your war criminals, beginning with Dubya, Clinton, Obama, Trump and Biden. > You've already lost. This is a really interesting comment, because it basically sets up a system where only nasty authoritarians can win. Maybe it's a memetic weapon, or the result of one.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
betwixthewires 5y ago
I always find articles like this very interesting, because what they're talking about is manipulating the worldviews, sentiments, desires, minds of people, and therefore behaviors, which is the ultimate goal. This is very intimate, and military people discuss it matter-of-factly. Not to demonize it. It is a fascinating topic, and one of those "genie out of the bottle" type things. The tools exist, someone is going to use them, therefore everyone has to use them. Human minds are evolved things, we have always been subject to manipulation. But now, our minds are swimming in a dense ocean of information, awash in it, noise and wisdom alike flowing through us unimpeded, and most people don't even realize this because they don't articulate it in this way. There are no borders, there are good actors, bad actors, irresponsible self serving actors, mixes of all types masquerading as each other, and probably more I didn't think of and mixes of all of it. In the new world, you have to think about your thinking, you have to understand metamemetics, or you're swaying in the wind generated by someone else for their own ends at all times. How many of my deeply held beliefs are there because someone wants them there? How many of my behaviors are the result of someone else's planning? How many of these beliefs and behaviors are bad for me? How might I become an actor in this realm on my own mind and reclaim my agency?
- star-trek-fleet 5y ago
  > I always find articles like this very interesting, because what they're talking about is manipulating the worldviews, sentiments, desires, minds of people, and therefore behaviors, which is the ultimate goal. This is very intimate, and military people discuss it matter-of-factly. If you look at the world, such feeling is not only prevalent, it's actually far more disturbing than you think. For example, all ads industry is built on manipulating human emotions. And surfing the web, you are forced into so many such abusive staff every single seconds. Look at the web content as well. When people staring at their phones, they are bring manipulated in the literal sense. And you'll find every one of these AD's producers have a matter of factly explanation, or even glorified one. Surprising? Not at all. Karl Max predicted this inhumane end of the capitalism more than a century ago.
  - chrisco255 5y ago
RugnirViking 5y ago
The "chinese concept on information war" link leads to a laughable US army presentation from the early 2000s that includes such nonsense as "Secondary sound waves in the 3- 17hz range will be the super killers in future wars. It may be possible to use them in intercontinental conflict. Special human abilities (telepathy, etc.) and mind control. " as well as mentioning stuff that is basically conspiricy theories like "virus 666".
- nefitty 5y ago
  Make them think we are nuts. Psyops. I guess some of us actually are nuts, though.
  - smhost 5y ago
neuro_image2 5y ago
This is probably a good time to endorse the work of the World Beyond War. https://worldbeyondwar.org/ https://worldbeyondwar.org/ And to remind everyone that militarism is a major public health threat, a significant cause of death, injury, homelessness, and disease, a completely preventable epidemic that consists of the large-scale killing, wounding, impoverishing, making homeless, orphaning, and traumatizing of people. We need to get past the mentality of trying to DOMINATE every domain in the pursuit of the disease of nationalism.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > This is probably a good time to endorse the work of the World Beyond War. That's an interesting website. Take a look at this, it's literally the first link in the "News From the Antiwar Movement" section of their home page right now [1]: https://worldbeyondwar.org/audio-david-swanson-on-russia-ukraine-and-war-madness/ https://worldbeyondwar.org/audio-david-swanson-on-russia-ukr... > AUDIO: David Swanson on Russia, Ukraine, and War Madness > By Sputnik, January 13, 2022 > John and Michelle catch up with David Swanson, executive director of World BEYOND War, to talk about the latest developments with NATO and conflict zones around the world. John points out that the direct link between EU membership and increased well-being for the population is questionable. Hungary joined the EU, and that isn’t what happened. David Swanson is the Executive Director of World Beyond War [2], and that podcast is hosted by Sputnik [3], which is part of the foreign propaganda arm of Russia, which has 100k troops massing along the border of Ukraine and is threatening war [4] (after already invading part of it less than a decade ago). So, is "World Beyond War" serving as a "human domain" weapon aimed at Western nations, in the service of war? [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20220113142642/https://worldbeyondwar.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220113142642/https://worldbeyo... [2] https://worldbeyondwar.org/who/ https://worldbeyondwar.org/who/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Sputnik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Per... [4] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/01/07/world/europe/ukraine-maps.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/01/07/world/europe/...
vegai_ 5y ago
I wonder how much of our shared and limited resources is humanity going to waste on preventing war and violence with war and violence before coming to its collective sense? How much richer could we all be without this amazing waste, or how much less pollution there'd be? Perhaps we should let the machines take over soon.
pydry 5y ago
I get the feeling that this was written by somebody frustrated that psyops isnt a separate branch of the military with it's own command structure, and is instead run haphazardly across all branches headed up by people who understand missiles, ships and planes better than people.
phkahler 5y ago
This article makes it seem like the DoD is unaware of the work of the CIA. As it probably should be in most cases.

54 points by Phithagoras 5y ago

"Further, where DoD and the US government have to compete in the human domain without sacrificing key values or crossing ethical lines, our adversaries often show no such constraint, as evidenced by the growing number of examples of their efforts to destabilize and paralyze free societies" Right there, hypocrite. If you want to prevail in the human domain, prosecute your war criminals, beginning with Dubya, Clinton, Obama, Trump and Biden. You've already lost.

senectus1 5y ago
has there ever been a leader that has prosecuted a war that isn't named as a "war criminal" ? Not trying to diminish your statement, but what defines a war criminal? If anything can then the term has no meaning, it turns any act of war into a criminal act. How do we make that term actually MEAN something again? Do they all have to be "Hitlers" or "Pol Pot's" ? surely not...
- yesenadam 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity
  - senectus1 5y ago
    yup, and can you name or give examples of a single act of war since those were defined and outlined that hasn't breached them?
- neltnerb 5y ago
  It's actually pretty well defined, the issue is that the winners rarely see a reason to hold themselves accountable. https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml The US agreed to this definition, it's pretty broad. Perhaps too broad, but I mean, look at the examples...
- roenxi 5y ago
  On the face of it, making all people who wage offensive war criminal seems like a good idea. Do you have an objection to the idea? There is only shaky moral ground for the US to stand on here, they've been the major force of war and destruction in the world for the last 50 years. No question in my mind that the individuals involved are monsters, but there is a good argument that maybe all the alternative systems are worse.
  - senectus1 5y ago
    only that it takes a term that once meant "Hitler/Pol Pot" etc. Monsters on truly large and horrifying scales... into something that is watered down to, well, the politics of war. Much like the word Terrorism. Its an almost worthless term.
DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
This applies to all leaders of all countries. As they say don't hate the player, hate the game. The player is the politician, or the party. The game is Capitalism and international tax law: Treasure Islands: Tax Havens and the Men who Stole the World: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Islands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Islands ^^ hardly any developed country comes off as good in this book and what brought us here is how we've been distributing wealth since the industrialization. Everyone's a hypocrite because it's the number #1 rule of "human-club". The more power one has, the more they'll be forced to square that circle. I still agree that anyone who has power should be put under more pressure than the rest, so punching the US (as a country not its people) is justified, but don't forget about countries like Germany, France, Russia, China, UK when dishing out accusations about hypocriticism. "The real problem of humanity is the following: we have Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions, and god-like technology." -- Edward O. Wilson, 1929
- TheGigaChad 5y ago
  [dead]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tablespoon 5y ago
>> "Further, where DoD and the US government have to compete in the human domain without sacrificing key values or crossing ethical lines, our adversaries often show no such constraint, as evidenced by the growing number of examples of their efforts to destabilize and paralyze free societies" > Right there, hypocrite. If you want to prevail in the human domain, prosecute your war criminals, beginning with Dubya, Clinton, Obama, Trump and Biden. > You've already lost. This is a really interesting comment, because it basically sets up a system where only nasty authoritarians can win. Maybe it's a memetic weapon, or the result of one.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

betwixthewires 5y ago

I always find articles like this very interesting, because what they're talking about is manipulating the worldviews, sentiments, desires, minds of people, and therefore behaviors, which is the ultimate goal. This is very intimate, and military people discuss it matter-of-factly. Not to demonize it. It is a fascinating topic, and one of those "genie out of the bottle" type things. The tools exist, someone is going to use them, therefore everyone has to use them. Human minds are evolved things, we have always been subject to manipulation. But now, our minds are swimming in a dense ocean of information, awash in it, noise and wisdom alike flowing through us unimpeded, and most people don't even realize this because they don't articulate it in this way. There are no borders, there are good actors, bad actors, irresponsible self serving actors, mixes of all types masquerading as each other, and probably more I didn't think of and mixes of all of it. In the new world, you have to think about your thinking, you have to understand metamemetics, or you're swaying in the wind generated by someone else for their own ends at all times. How many of my deeply held beliefs are there because someone wants them there? How many of my behaviors are the result of someone else's planning? How many of these beliefs and behaviors are bad for me? How might I become an actor in this realm on my own mind and reclaim my agency?

star-trek-fleet 5y ago
> I always find articles like this very interesting, because what they're talking about is manipulating the worldviews, sentiments, desires, minds of people, and therefore behaviors, which is the ultimate goal. This is very intimate, and military people discuss it matter-of-factly. If you look at the world, such feeling is not only prevalent, it's actually far more disturbing than you think. For example, all ads industry is built on manipulating human emotions. And surfing the web, you are forced into so many such abusive staff every single seconds. Look at the web content as well. When people staring at their phones, they are bring manipulated in the literal sense. And you'll find every one of these AD's producers have a matter of factly explanation, or even glorified one. Surprising? Not at all. Karl Max predicted this inhumane end of the capitalism more than a century ago.
- chrisco255 5y ago

RugnirViking 5y ago

The "chinese concept on information war" link leads to a laughable US army presentation from the early 2000s that includes such nonsense as "Secondary sound waves in the 3- 17hz range will be the super killers in future wars. It may be possible to use them in intercontinental conflict. Special human abilities (telepathy, etc.) and mind control. " as well as mentioning stuff that is basically conspiricy theories like "virus 666".

nefitty 5y ago
Make them think we are nuts. Psyops. I guess some of us actually are nuts, though.
- smhost 5y ago

neuro_image2 5y ago

This is probably a good time to endorse the work of the World Beyond War. https://worldbeyondwar.org/ https://worldbeyondwar.org/ And to remind everyone that militarism is a major public health threat, a significant cause of death, injury, homelessness, and disease, a completely preventable epidemic that consists of the large-scale killing, wounding, impoverishing, making homeless, orphaning, and traumatizing of people. We need to get past the mentality of trying to DOMINATE every domain in the pursuit of the disease of nationalism.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tablespoon 5y ago
> This is probably a good time to endorse the work of the World Beyond War. That's an interesting website. Take a look at this, it's literally the first link in the "News From the Antiwar Movement" section of their home page right now [1]: https://worldbeyondwar.org/audio-david-swanson-on-russia-ukraine-and-war-madness/ https://worldbeyondwar.org/audio-david-swanson-on-russia-ukr... > AUDIO: David Swanson on Russia, Ukraine, and War Madness > By Sputnik, January 13, 2022 > John and Michelle catch up with David Swanson, executive director of World BEYOND War, to talk about the latest developments with NATO and conflict zones around the world. John points out that the direct link between EU membership and increased well-being for the population is questionable. Hungary joined the EU, and that isn’t what happened. David Swanson is the Executive Director of World Beyond War [2], and that podcast is hosted by Sputnik [3], which is part of the foreign propaganda arm of Russia, which has 100k troops massing along the border of Ukraine and is threatening war [4] (after already invading part of it less than a decade ago). So, is "World Beyond War" serving as a "human domain" weapon aimed at Western nations, in the service of war? [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20220113142642/https://worldbeyondwar.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220113142642/https://worldbeyo... [2] https://worldbeyondwar.org/who/ https://worldbeyondwar.org/who/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Sputnik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Per... [4] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/01/07/world/europe/ukraine-maps.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/01/07/world/europe/...

vegai_ 5y ago

I wonder how much of our shared and limited resources is humanity going to waste on preventing war and violence with war and violence before coming to its collective sense? How much richer could we all be without this amazing waste, or how much less pollution there'd be? Perhaps we should let the machines take over soon.

pydry 5y ago

I get the feeling that this was written by somebody frustrated that psyops isnt a separate branch of the military with it's own command structure, and is instead run haphazardly across all branches headed up by people who understand missiles, ships and planes better than people.

phkahler 5y ago

This article makes it seem like the DoD is unaware of the work of the CIA. As it probably should be in most cases.