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Thanks for your clarification. It's good to read that the pig was well cared and experiments passed ethics reviews. To be fair your original comment was lacking

by tcgv 5y ago

Thanks for your clarification. It's good to read that the pig was well cared and experiments passed ethics reviews. To be fair your original comment was lacking this information, hence when I first read it felt (unintentionally as we can see now) a bit cold-hearted to me as well.

nsonha 5y ago
lol that's it? If they said something like "how you feel about it is inconsequential" I would accept it as a pragmatic/stoic way to look at it. There is no way a life in a lab can be even remotely good, well cared or not, but it's hard to compare when a typical life of a pig ends with being slaughtered, only to end up expired pieces of meat most of the times.
- cheese_goddess 5y ago
  How do you think a life of a pig would end if it wasn't being slaughtered? Most likely it would be half-eaten alive by a predator and the rest left to rot or be taken by scavengers. The same thing will happen now (the expired pieces of meat will mostly become food for insect larvae) except it's a human doing the slaughtering and the animal is killed before being eaten.
  - nsonha 5y ago
    the life of such pig would not even begin, which is a good thing, if wasn't for human to have so much meat on display that it gets expired.
    - cheese_goddess 5y ago
      Sorry, I didn't understand what you mean. Can you type more carefully? English is not my first language and I can't guess what you're trying to say.
    - snovv_crash 5y ago
      Wishing you had never been born is one thing, wishing someone/something else had never been born is not a response of empathy but rather personal guilt.
      - nsonha 5y ago
        This is not even a question, being born into a life of slavery and ultimately being slaughtered is worse than not being born. Think about it, you are born into a prison and given no chance to even develop a proper consciousness. This is very different than a fully aware human getting locked up in a prison.
        suifbwish 5y ago
        However since the individual being born is not making the choice, it falls to the individual or group benefitting from the individual being born into the circumstance you described. Universal morality is a form of anthropomorphization, or projecting human characteristics onto an amoral natural world.
        nsonha 5y ago
        This is like the pro life argument. I love it when people are so argumentative about such a simple thing. We are talking about birth control, there is no individual exists to make any choice. > Projecting human characteristics onto an amoral natural world. this is not a bad thing comparing to the alternative which is assuming that animals are too dumb to be sympathize with
        kbelder 5y ago
        I don't know that all slaves would agree with you.
        nsonha 5y ago
        I made that last sentence just to preemptively respond to your argument. Also live stock is much worse than slavery
    - pharke 5y ago
      This line of argument also supports the extermination of all living beings because it prevents all future suffering. Think about that before you use it.
      - nsonha 5y ago
        No, because I never claimed that preventing suffering is the only goal. Just add one more goal which is potentially experiencing pleasure then you can justify most lives, well except that of those pigs
        pharke 5y ago
        In which case it becomes an optimization problem where you have to find the optimal number of living beings to exterminate in order to provide the maximal amount of pleasure for those remaining. Not any better.
        nsonha 5y ago
        > find the optimal number of living beings to exterminate you are conflating birth control with "exterminate", not the same thing. Birth control has its roles, does it not? > in order to provide the maximal amount of pleasure for those remaining. I never said that, pleasure is an example, society is optimized for way more variables that suffering and pleasure. In the context of farm animals, it looks like the only purpose for the pigs to exist is to be food, then when the food is over-produced and wasted, then you have to question why have that many of them born into a miserable life then die pointlessly. > Not any better just say it like that, no explanation? What is not good? Optimization?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - nvegater 5y ago
        I see it a bit different. Using your own sentence structure: "The line of argument supports the prevention of the existence of an undefined number of living beings to max. the quality of life of other existing living beings." The argument doesn't seem to me as simple as you are portraying it and I don't see where you got the extermination part from.
dexwiz 5y ago
Honestly, I felt that the ethics board part was implied. In western universities it's very hard to do animal testing. No one just strolls down to Pets Mart and picks up some mice. The Animal Welfare Act governs animal testing in the United States, and school risk funding if they don't follow the law. To be honest, I don't know the ins and outs of the specific programs. I just know they had to present and get their protocol (experiment) approved. It was a serious thing to present, not a rubber stamp process. If you want more details, I found this doc from my school. Purdue does biomedical testing and is also a premiere large animal veterinary school. https://www.purdue.edu/research/regulatory-affairs/animal-research/docs/Handbook.pdf https://www.purdue.edu/research/regulatory-affairs/animal-re...
- catgary 5y ago
  I know University of Calgary had a bio professor who got in hot water for abusing animals (essentially: he encouraged his student to not anaesthetize animals before surgery to fudge numbers). So there are definitely grad students who will happily torture animals if it can help their career.
  - medstrom 5y ago
    Damn, they require you to tell them how many mice you've got so you can get that many anaesthesis doses? That rule wasn't thought through.
    - reportingsjr 5y ago
      It is common to use ketamine for anesthesia in animal testing. It's a controlled drug, so you have to keep a pretty good log of it's use.
    - suifbwish 5y ago
      How many Mice do you have? 800,000. You used ketamine for all of them? YES. Thats a lot of ketamine YES. Can you show us the mice? NO. Why not We disposed of their bodies after the experiment. Then how can we verify the data from the experiment? Give us ketamine for 800,000 more mice
hungryforcodes 5y ago
Do you EAT pig?
- MrFlibbles 5y ago
  Yes, frequently.

by tcgv 5y ago

nsonha 5y ago

lol that's it? If they said something like "how you feel about it is inconsequential" I would accept it as a pragmatic/stoic way to look at it. There is no way a life in a lab can be even remotely good, well cared or not, but it's hard to compare when a typical life of a pig ends with being slaughtered, only to end up expired pieces of meat most of the times.

cheese_goddess 5y ago
How do you think a life of a pig would end if it wasn't being slaughtered? Most likely it would be half-eaten alive by a predator and the rest left to rot or be taken by scavengers. The same thing will happen now (the expired pieces of meat will mostly become food for insect larvae) except it's a human doing the slaughtering and the animal is killed before being eaten.
- nsonha 5y ago
  the life of such pig would not even begin, which is a good thing, if wasn't for human to have so much meat on display that it gets expired.
  - cheese_goddess 5y ago
    Sorry, I didn't understand what you mean. Can you type more carefully? English is not my first language and I can't guess what you're trying to say.
  - snovv_crash 5y ago
    Wishing you had never been born is one thing, wishing someone/something else had never been born is not a response of empathy but rather personal guilt.
    - nsonha 5y ago
      This is not even a question, being born into a life of slavery and ultimately being slaughtered is worse than not being born. Think about it, you are born into a prison and given no chance to even develop a proper consciousness. This is very different than a fully aware human getting locked up in a prison.
      - suifbwish 5y ago
        However since the individual being born is not making the choice, it falls to the individual or group benefitting from the individual being born into the circumstance you described. Universal morality is a form of anthropomorphization, or projecting human characteristics onto an amoral natural world.
        nsonha 5y ago
        This is like the pro life argument. I love it when people are so argumentative about such a simple thing. We are talking about birth control, there is no individual exists to make any choice. > Projecting human characteristics onto an amoral natural world. this is not a bad thing comparing to the alternative which is assuming that animals are too dumb to be sympathize with
      - kbelder 5y ago
        I don't know that all slaves would agree with you.
        nsonha 5y ago
        I made that last sentence just to preemptively respond to your argument. Also live stock is much worse than slavery
  - pharke 5y ago
    This line of argument also supports the extermination of all living beings because it prevents all future suffering. Think about that before you use it.
    - nsonha 5y ago
      No, because I never claimed that preventing suffering is the only goal. Just add one more goal which is potentially experiencing pleasure then you can justify most lives, well except that of those pigs
      - pharke 5y ago
        In which case it becomes an optimization problem where you have to find the optimal number of living beings to exterminate in order to provide the maximal amount of pleasure for those remaining. Not any better.
        nsonha 5y ago
        > find the optimal number of living beings to exterminate you are conflating birth control with "exterminate", not the same thing. Birth control has its roles, does it not? > in order to provide the maximal amount of pleasure for those remaining. I never said that, pleasure is an example, society is optimized for way more variables that suffering and pleasure. In the context of farm animals, it looks like the only purpose for the pigs to exist is to be food, then when the food is over-produced and wasted, then you have to question why have that many of them born into a miserable life then die pointlessly. > Not any better just say it like that, no explanation? What is not good? Optimization?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - nvegater 5y ago
      I see it a bit different. Using your own sentence structure: "The line of argument supports the prevention of the existence of an undefined number of living beings to max. the quality of life of other existing living beings." The argument doesn't seem to me as simple as you are portraying it and I don't see where you got the extermination part from.

dexwiz 5y ago

Honestly, I felt that the ethics board part was implied. In western universities it's very hard to do animal testing. No one just strolls down to Pets Mart and picks up some mice. The Animal Welfare Act governs animal testing in the United States, and school risk funding if they don't follow the law. To be honest, I don't know the ins and outs of the specific programs. I just know they had to present and get their protocol (experiment) approved. It was a serious thing to present, not a rubber stamp process. If you want more details, I found this doc from my school. Purdue does biomedical testing and is also a premiere large animal veterinary school. https://www.purdue.edu/research/regulatory-affairs/animal-research/docs/Handbook.pdf https://www.purdue.edu/research/regulatory-affairs/animal-re...

catgary 5y ago
I know University of Calgary had a bio professor who got in hot water for abusing animals (essentially: he encouraged his student to not anaesthetize animals before surgery to fudge numbers). So there are definitely grad students who will happily torture animals if it can help their career.
- medstrom 5y ago
  Damn, they require you to tell them how many mice you've got so you can get that many anaesthesis doses? That rule wasn't thought through.
  - reportingsjr 5y ago
    It is common to use ketamine for anesthesia in animal testing. It's a controlled drug, so you have to keep a pretty good log of it's use.
  - suifbwish 5y ago
    How many Mice do you have? 800,000. You used ketamine for all of them? YES. Thats a lot of ketamine YES. Can you show us the mice? NO. Why not We disposed of their bodies after the experiment. Then how can we verify the data from the experiment? Give us ketamine for 800,000 more mice

hungryforcodes 5y ago

Do you EAT pig?

MrFlibbles 5y ago
Yes, frequently.