5 ms·

It all sounds so depressing and off the rails. Armed checkpoints, swastikas, outlandish beliefs. You hear about '2 americas' and see that people voted for trump

by geenew 5y ago

It all sounds so depressing and off the rails. Armed checkpoints, swastikas, outlandish beliefs. You hear about '2 americas' and see that people voted for trump, but hearing details like this makes the divide seem much starker.

tristor 5y ago
> but hearing details like this makes the divide seem much starker. I'm in a deeply red part of the country, most of my neighbors (all of whom are non-white) are hardcore Trump supporters. Exactly zero behave or talk like this. I am not saying what the grandparent described is false, rather I would suggest that the current political zeitgeist is exceptionally reactionary. In a state like Oregon, in a small town just outside Portland, a legendarily kooky Left-wing enclave, that the folks who are on the Right are significantly more "out there" than is typical. Meanwhile, I'm in a heavily red area of a heavily red state and nobody feels the need to be "out there" because the localized norm is being on the Right. So, I won't say that the divide isn't quite stark, but I think it's easy to look at the most extreme examples from each side and see the chasm that separates, which can lead to imagining a much bigger divide than actually exists. Political zealotry operates on a bell curve like pretty much anything else involving people.
- geenew 5y ago
  Thanks for saying this. Any rapprochement must focus on the relative moderates on either side of the spectrum. Trying to bring together people more than one or two standard deviations from the mean is likely impossible and also likely unnecessary in the grand scheme.
- noduerme 5y ago
  It's true that if you tell anyone out there that you live in Portland, their first response is "I'm so sorry," followed up with "it's turned into such a shithole". This is always said to imply that it's not as white as it used to be, and people will get more specific if you let them. But most of them only know this from watching TV. They never go to the city even though it's less than 45 minutes away. So being close to Portland might explain part of their allergic reaction to hippies. But I'm not sure if it's the whole issue. Oregon isn't just a red state with one dark-blue enclave. It also has a history of extremist white nationalism going back well over a century since its foundation a whites-only state. Then, in the 1980s and onward it became a destination for white nationalist groups, along with Idaho and eastern Washington. Grant's Pass and Medford, in particular, are hotbeds of extremism. Another little anecdote. When I was relatively new to town, I struck up a conversation with an intelligent, pretty woman sitting outside a bar one day. She grew up in Grant's Pass. We hit it off and chatted for almost two hours before I mentioned I was Jewish. She got a stricken look and said, "oh - that's the one kind of person my Dad would kill me if I ever brought home." I asked why and she said, "He loves Adolf Hitler". She went on to explain that her father kept all of Hitler's speeches around the house. She said she wasn't into "any of those politics". Well, so much for that one.
  - irrational 5y ago
    > it's turned into such a shithole". This is always said to imply that it's not as white as it used to be Well, I live in Portland and they aren't entirely wrong. When I first moved here many decades ago it was a very clean city. Now, every vertical surface (even including highway signs) is entirely covered with graffiti. Nearly every horizontal surface is covered with homeless camps. I would still want to live in Portland over anywhere else I have lived, but I don't know how anyone could argue that the city has not gone way downhill over the past 5-10 years.
    - rainonmoon 5y ago
      I'm assuming you only meant to quote the first part of GP's post but including the second part followed by "they aren't entirely wrong" makes it look like you're agreeing that it being less white than it used to be is why it's turned into a shithole. Do you really think those two things are connected?
coolso 5y ago
I mean, there are plenty of outlandish stories of people from the other side. Doxxing, finding out where you work and getting you fired, burning and looting small businesses, setting up your own “autonomous zone”, getting incredibly worked up to the point of near mental breakdowns on Twitter over very minor issues, vandalizing property over “environmental crimes”, innocent people being accosted, harassed, and assaulted for wearing a red baseball cap with white letters on it or having a Trump bumper sticker, and so on. It goes both ways but the media tends to sugar coat and/or gloss over one side more than the other.

by geenew 5y ago

tristor 5y ago

> but hearing details like this makes the divide seem much starker. I'm in a deeply red part of the country, most of my neighbors (all of whom are non-white) are hardcore Trump supporters. Exactly zero behave or talk like this. I am not saying what the grandparent described is false, rather I would suggest that the current political zeitgeist is exceptionally reactionary. In a state like Oregon, in a small town just outside Portland, a legendarily kooky Left-wing enclave, that the folks who are on the Right are significantly more "out there" than is typical. Meanwhile, I'm in a heavily red area of a heavily red state and nobody feels the need to be "out there" because the localized norm is being on the Right. So, I won't say that the divide isn't quite stark, but I think it's easy to look at the most extreme examples from each side and see the chasm that separates, which can lead to imagining a much bigger divide than actually exists. Political zealotry operates on a bell curve like pretty much anything else involving people.

geenew 5y ago
Thanks for saying this. Any rapprochement must focus on the relative moderates on either side of the spectrum. Trying to bring together people more than one or two standard deviations from the mean is likely impossible and also likely unnecessary in the grand scheme.
noduerme 5y ago
It's true that if you tell anyone out there that you live in Portland, their first response is "I'm so sorry," followed up with "it's turned into such a shithole". This is always said to imply that it's not as white as it used to be, and people will get more specific if you let them. But most of them only know this from watching TV. They never go to the city even though it's less than 45 minutes away. So being close to Portland might explain part of their allergic reaction to hippies. But I'm not sure if it's the whole issue. Oregon isn't just a red state with one dark-blue enclave. It also has a history of extremist white nationalism going back well over a century since its foundation a whites-only state. Then, in the 1980s and onward it became a destination for white nationalist groups, along with Idaho and eastern Washington. Grant's Pass and Medford, in particular, are hotbeds of extremism. Another little anecdote. When I was relatively new to town, I struck up a conversation with an intelligent, pretty woman sitting outside a bar one day. She grew up in Grant's Pass. We hit it off and chatted for almost two hours before I mentioned I was Jewish. She got a stricken look and said, "oh - that's the one kind of person my Dad would kill me if I ever brought home." I asked why and she said, "He loves Adolf Hitler". She went on to explain that her father kept all of Hitler's speeches around the house. She said she wasn't into "any of those politics". Well, so much for that one.
- irrational 5y ago
  > it's turned into such a shithole". This is always said to imply that it's not as white as it used to be Well, I live in Portland and they aren't entirely wrong. When I first moved here many decades ago it was a very clean city. Now, every vertical surface (even including highway signs) is entirely covered with graffiti. Nearly every horizontal surface is covered with homeless camps. I would still want to live in Portland over anywhere else I have lived, but I don't know how anyone could argue that the city has not gone way downhill over the past 5-10 years.
  - rainonmoon 5y ago
    I'm assuming you only meant to quote the first part of GP's post but including the second part followed by "they aren't entirely wrong" makes it look like you're agreeing that it being less white than it used to be is why it's turned into a shithole. Do you really think those two things are connected?

coolso 5y ago

I mean, there are plenty of outlandish stories of people from the other side. Doxxing, finding out where you work and getting you fired, burning and looting small businesses, setting up your own “autonomous zone”, getting incredibly worked up to the point of near mental breakdowns on Twitter over very minor issues, vandalizing property over “environmental crimes”, innocent people being accosted, harassed, and assaulted for wearing a red baseball cap with white letters on it or having a Trump bumper sticker, and so on. It goes both ways but the media tends to sugar coat and/or gloss over one side more than the other.