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> Given that your name is going to be used by other people a lot more frequently than you're going to use it yourself, it would make sense to make sure that you

> Given that your name is going to be used by other people a lot more frequently than you're going to use it yourself, it would make sense to make sure that your name is convenient for others to use. I’m not sure a riddle that stumps young children is a good basis for how people should define their own identity. I certainly don’t think it should defer to the convenience of others. Especially when identity, or conflict thereof, can be a source of trauma and/or expose people to serious risk.

Edman274 5y ago
> I’m not sure a riddle that stumps young children is a good basis for how people should define their own identity. I certainly don’t think it should defer to the convenience of others. Especially when identity, or conflict thereof, can be a source of trauma and/or expose people to serious risk. The riddle is a reflection of reality. I used it as an example to illustrate the idea that everyone - including children - implicitly know that a name is a social contract with everyone (including software and government databases) that uses that name. > Especially when identity, or conflict thereof, can be a source of trauma and/or expose people to serious risk. Identity absolutely can expose people to risk. No system, anywhere, has ever exposed someone to a special form of risk or trauma by asking for a first name and a last name. They absolutely have by asking for valid government names without privacy protections (as Facebook, Google+, and others have), but that's an orthogonal issue.
- eyelidlessness 5y ago
  > No system, anywhere, has ever exposed someone to a special form of risk or trauma by asking for a first name and a last name. Countdown til this gets added to Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names, if it hasn’t already.
  - xena 5y ago
    Author here, part of the reason I want to disassociate myself with my assigned at birth last name is for trauma reasons.
    - Edman274 5y ago
      Does the requirement to define any last name at all expose you to a special form of trauma that would be mitigated by not having to define any last name, even if the last name is of your choosing?
      - xena 5y ago
        I would rather it be a last name of my choosing if I have to have one at all.
        Edman274 5y ago
        That's the point I was making. The mere existence of a constraint that says "you have to define a first name and a last name" is not a traumatic constraint. Whether the first name and last name match up with a previous name that has baggage is a separate issue from whether or not it's okay to ask for any first name and last name. A database schema does not ask you to provide a problematic last name, it asks to provide a last name. That's why I said, in the comment responding to a great-grandparent comment, "They absolutely have [exposed someone to a special form of risk or trauma] by asking for valid government names without privacy protections (as Facebook, Google+, and others have), but that's an orthogonal issue."
        eyelidlessness 5y ago
        > That's the point I was making. The mere existence of a constraint that says "you have to define a first name and a last name" is not a traumatic constraint. It can be, for me. It depends on my state of mind when I encounter it. Recall isn’t always traumatic for me, for which I’m grateful. Sometimes when I hear my family name or I’m compelled to say/write it, along comes a flood of other mental references. Many of which are traumatic. When I’m compelled to put name values in forms I… have trained my mind well to consider how deeply I’m going into that memory cave, but I’m already there before I’ve evaluated whether I think that form needs my information for valid reasons. Your “point” that people can substitute names for convenience of data collection is not avoiding trauma, it’s avoiding you bothering to accommodate it. Me faced with just the fact of the whole of my name, my family history, I’m looking at abuse and suicide and misery. Even if I ultimately write in “eat” for first name and “butts” for last.

Edman274 5y ago

> I’m not sure a riddle that stumps young children is a good basis for how people should define their own identity. I certainly don’t think it should defer to the convenience of others. Especially when identity, or conflict thereof, can be a source of trauma and/or expose people to serious risk. The riddle is a reflection of reality. I used it as an example to illustrate the idea that everyone - including children - implicitly know that a name is a social contract with everyone (including software and government databases) that uses that name. > Especially when identity, or conflict thereof, can be a source of trauma and/or expose people to serious risk. Identity absolutely can expose people to risk. No system, anywhere, has ever exposed someone to a special form of risk or trauma by asking for a first name and a last name. They absolutely have by asking for valid government names without privacy protections (as Facebook, Google+, and others have), but that's an orthogonal issue.

eyelidlessness 5y ago
> No system, anywhere, has ever exposed someone to a special form of risk or trauma by asking for a first name and a last name. Countdown til this gets added to Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names, if it hasn’t already.
- xena 5y ago
  Author here, part of the reason I want to disassociate myself with my assigned at birth last name is for trauma reasons.
  - Edman274 5y ago
    Does the requirement to define any last name at all expose you to a special form of trauma that would be mitigated by not having to define any last name, even if the last name is of your choosing?
    - xena 5y ago
      I would rather it be a last name of my choosing if I have to have one at all.
      - Edman274 5y ago
        That's the point I was making. The mere existence of a constraint that says "you have to define a first name and a last name" is not a traumatic constraint. Whether the first name and last name match up with a previous name that has baggage is a separate issue from whether or not it's okay to ask for any first name and last name. A database schema does not ask you to provide a problematic last name, it asks to provide a last name. That's why I said, in the comment responding to a great-grandparent comment, "They absolutely have [exposed someone to a special form of risk or trauma] by asking for valid government names without privacy protections (as Facebook, Google+, and others have), but that's an orthogonal issue."
        eyelidlessness 5y ago
        > That's the point I was making. The mere existence of a constraint that says "you have to define a first name and a last name" is not a traumatic constraint. It can be, for me. It depends on my state of mind when I encounter it. Recall isn’t always traumatic for me, for which I’m grateful. Sometimes when I hear my family name or I’m compelled to say/write it, along comes a flood of other mental references. Many of which are traumatic. When I’m compelled to put name values in forms I… have trained my mind well to consider how deeply I’m going into that memory cave, but I’m already there before I’ve evaluated whether I think that form needs my information for valid reasons. Your “point” that people can substitute names for convenience of data collection is not avoiding trauma, it’s avoiding you bothering to accommodate it. Me faced with just the fact of the whole of my name, my family history, I’m looking at abuse and suicide and misery. Even if I ultimately write in “eat” for first name and “butts” for last.