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Sorry - you brought these things up in regards to a slippery slope being denied treatment. I responded to you in good faith to say that half of those do have so

Sorry - you brought these things up in regards to a slippery slope being denied treatment. I responded to you in good faith to say that half of those do have some sort of denial of treatment, specifically citing what is denied. I do not agree that stabilization of a patient is treating any underlying disease or cause. We're splitting hairs - I'm out.

danenania 5y ago
Splitting hairs? Which one of us is referring to various forms of medical treatment as "denying treatment"? You're advocating for sending unvaccinated people away with zero treatment. None of your examples are remotely comparable. If you were really discussing in good faith, you would admit it.
- peterangular 5y ago
  > If you were really discussing in good faith, you would admit it. Right and that's why I'm out. I have made my arguments, and I don't appreciate you implying that I am discussing these things in bad-faith. If we disagree that is fine. Respectfully, I am done discussing this with you.
  - danenania 5y ago
    You’re trying to claim stabilizing someone in the ER isn’t medical treatment. You are transparently arguing in bad faith and you know it. But sure, take your ball and go home since you can’t defend your arguments.
    - pseudalopex 5y ago
      Denying treatment can mean denying any treatment or denying all treatment. They meant the 1st. You meant the 2nd.
      - danenania 5y ago
        folkhack posted a comment advocating for the 2nd. That's what we're talking about.
        pseudalopex 5y ago
        I'm talking about you saying they claimed something they didn't. And accusing them of bad faith. They were wrong hospitals shouldn't treat unvaccinated patients. They were right withholding treatment someone needs to live months and withholding treatment someone needs to live days aren't 100% different.
        danenania 5y ago
        They’re 100% different in the sense that withholding treatment completely is not done in the US currently for any reason. We've drawn a line there as a society.
        pseudalopex 5y ago
        I think all of us understand the present US law. Most Americans say everyone should have access to national insurance actually. And legality and popularity don't settle ethical questions.
        peterangular 5y ago
        First, thank you. I feel like this is an opportunity to clarify in a thread of rationality vs. getting accused of bad faith... I never made the claim that they shouldn't treat unvaccinated patients: > And, I think it's an ethically defensible position to not treat people who refuse to get vaccinated... even though it will never happen. And specifically to the parent comment I was agreeing to the following (quoting parent): > It's unconscionable to take a hospital bed away from someone who needs it, because you refuse to take your medicine, with predictable consequences. Although maybe it's not my best self showing here - but I do feel angry toward people taking those hospital beds away. And I was very specifically agreeing that "It's unconscionable to take a hospital bed away from someone who needs it [...]" I have friends/family who are suffering real consequences of hospitals being overrun with largely unvaccinated people... --- Overall, I don't think "ethically defensible position" is equivalent to "they should not treat unvaccinated people" - yeah I guess this can be seen as "walking it back" but overall I did not mean to outright state we shouldn't treat the unvaccinated. Sure - it comes from a place of frustration. But I don't think I'm alone in thinking about these things. Sorry if this is off-base.

danenania 5y ago

Splitting hairs? Which one of us is referring to various forms of medical treatment as "denying treatment"? You're advocating for sending unvaccinated people away with zero treatment. None of your examples are remotely comparable. If you were really discussing in good faith, you would admit it.

peterangular 5y ago
> If you were really discussing in good faith, you would admit it. Right and that's why I'm out. I have made my arguments, and I don't appreciate you implying that I am discussing these things in bad-faith. If we disagree that is fine. Respectfully, I am done discussing this with you.
- danenania 5y ago
  You’re trying to claim stabilizing someone in the ER isn’t medical treatment. You are transparently arguing in bad faith and you know it. But sure, take your ball and go home since you can’t defend your arguments.
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    Denying treatment can mean denying any treatment or denying all treatment. They meant the 1st. You meant the 2nd.
    - danenania 5y ago
      folkhack posted a comment advocating for the 2nd. That's what we're talking about.
      - pseudalopex 5y ago
        I'm talking about you saying they claimed something they didn't. And accusing them of bad faith. They were wrong hospitals shouldn't treat unvaccinated patients. They were right withholding treatment someone needs to live months and withholding treatment someone needs to live days aren't 100% different.
        danenania 5y ago
        They’re 100% different in the sense that withholding treatment completely is not done in the US currently for any reason. We've drawn a line there as a society.
        pseudalopex 5y ago
        I think all of us understand the present US law. Most Americans say everyone should have access to national insurance actually. And legality and popularity don't settle ethical questions.
        peterangular 5y ago
        First, thank you. I feel like this is an opportunity to clarify in a thread of rationality vs. getting accused of bad faith... I never made the claim that they shouldn't treat unvaccinated patients: > And, I think it's an ethically defensible position to not treat people who refuse to get vaccinated... even though it will never happen. And specifically to the parent comment I was agreeing to the following (quoting parent): > It's unconscionable to take a hospital bed away from someone who needs it, because you refuse to take your medicine, with predictable consequences. Although maybe it's not my best self showing here - but I do feel angry toward people taking those hospital beds away. And I was very specifically agreeing that "It's unconscionable to take a hospital bed away from someone who needs it [...]" I have friends/family who are suffering real consequences of hospitals being overrun with largely unvaccinated people... --- Overall, I don't think "ethically defensible position" is equivalent to "they should not treat unvaccinated people" - yeah I guess this can be seen as "walking it back" but overall I did not mean to outright state we shouldn't treat the unvaccinated. Sure - it comes from a place of frustration. But I don't think I'm alone in thinking about these things. Sorry if this is off-base.