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Your comment is a great illustration of my point. Many people that share your opinion feel so strongly that they "know the truth" and "are right" that they fee

Your comment is a great illustration of my point. Many people that share your opinion feel so strongly that they "know the truth" and "are right" that they feel justified in "othering" - even though most have no qualifications for the subject. I'm not sure what causes this, or what the solution is. It's certainly not how science works, or how a liberal society should operate. If those are values that are still important to us, I feel like there needs to be some sort of solution to this. Maybe the problem lies in the medium. I wonder if you would be so hostile if we were discussing this over beers somewhere? Perhaps. I hope not.

lovich 5y ago
I think you’re talking past the other poster. Not getting a vaccine is seen as an anti social action by the vaccine taking group. And not just in a “I blare music out loud on the subway” level but a “I leave piles of brush near my neighbors house during wildfire season” level Society is generally hostile to behavior it views as being in the latter level of seriousness and talking about it over beers doesn’t generally make people more open to the idea that you are risking their lives
- claytongulick 5y ago
  I agree, on review I was. I was trying to be careful in my phrasing to avoid any form of personal attack or hostility, since the other poster clearly has strong feelings about the subject. > Society is generally hostile to behavior it views as being in the latter level of seriousness and talking about it over beers doesn’t generally make people more open to the idea that you are risking their lives That's what's so strange about this, isn't it? I haven't seen any evidence anywhere that deciding against getting the vaccine puts anyone else's health at risk. I've certainly heard some politicians say this, but I haven't seen it backed by any reputable studies. The phrase "pandemic of the unvaccinated" has been bandied about quite a bit, without any supporting evidence that I'm aware of. From what I've seen, omicron is spread by fully vaccinated folks without much inhibition. Apparently, being vaccinated reduces the severity of an already (relatively) mild variant. So why all the hyperbole? Why the draconian mandates? Why ignore the demographics of vulnerable populations and insist on mandates for everyone? Even children? Risking lives? Unless you have severe comorbidities or are very elderly, there's asymptotically approaching zero risk of a severe outcome from any Covid infection, especially not with omicron. You've struck to the heart of the matter. Somehow, many people have been convinced, against all reason and science, that deciding against getting vaccinated is somehow antisocial. Why? What are the motivations involved? Who is doing this? There's a reasonable argument that skipping that vaccine isn't smart, but antisocial? That's a very different and aggressive narrative. It all comes across as very scary to those of us who don't necessarily agree with the prevailing interventions of the past couple years. They don't appear, on the surface, to be evidence based. Lockdowns certainly were not, and now that we have retrospective data, we know that they were ineffective and in most cases quite harmful. Universal masking wasn't effective, but some states and companies are still requiring it. Why? Shutting down schools was a societal nightmare, with no demonstrated benefit. Yet we see some places doing it again. Why? At each step of the way with these interventions, those who argued against them were also considered to be "antisocial" and were silenced, ridiculed, and othered. Now we have mandated vaccination, ignoring immunity status and demographics. Even for children, who have a much higher risk from the flu than they do Covid. Doesn't it seem strange? School districts don't mandate the flu vaccine, but several have proposed mandatory Covid vaccines? Doesn't it make you wonder why? What could possibly justify Austria's extreme measures, police brutality and draconian mandates? In Australia, a grandmother was just put in jail for not wearing a mask. I've seen videos of similar things happening in the U.S. How can we even pretend to be a civil society and tolerate this? Why have we allowed ourselves to believe that "othering" anyone is ok? These are the first steps down an extraordinarily dangerous path, history shows us. It's been so sad and disheartening to me to watch our society progress from "free hugs" towards a dystopian nightmare. Were we always so fragile? Were our liberal beliefs always just a beautiful lie waiting to be exposed at the first test?
  - skulk 5y ago
    > I haven't seen any evidence anywhere that deciding against getting the vaccine puts anyone else's health at risk. How would you square this with unvaccinated people filling up hospitals preventing those with unpreventable health issues from getting care? https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/covid-hospitalizations-pa-vaccines-omicron-20220107.html https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/covid-hospitaliz...
    - claytongulick 5y ago
      That's a great question! My response is that, like everything, there's a ton of nuance. It requires a very careful reading of that article, paying attention to not just what they say, but what they explicitly fail to say. First, I couldn't find any reference in that article to people being denied care, did I miss it? But regardless, it's a really great example of what causes a lot of my deep suspicion. For example, the article details the low hospitalization rate amongst all vaccinated people, with lots of zeros after the decimal point, presenting it as evidence for the effectiveness of the vaccine - however, it doesn't mention anywhere the rate of hospitalization for the unvaccinated. Most likely because the numbers would look very similar to the reader. Another example, the article says that most of the vaccinated covid patients are elderly, or those with severe comorbidities. It doesn't mention, however, that that is also true for the unvaccinated. Another omission - the article doesn't discuss the difference between patients with covid, and patients admitted because of covid. That's an important variable, but until recently it's been a bit suppressed. Another thing the article fails to mention is confounding factors like age when considering vaccination rate and infection rate. It's a confounding factor because (according to what I've read) the most completely vaccinated are young, healthy people. Many cranky older people like myself are not. That's a pretty important confounding factor when you're looking at hospitalizations and comparing populations. The article is pretty heavy on hyperbole, but doesn't mention that hospitals (especially the ICU's) are designed to operate at or near capacity. Hospitals are sized based on the community they serve and must remain mostly utilized in order to remain profitable. One fun thing to do that demonstrates this is to go back and search for articles for years prior to Covid, where there would be hysterical articles about the flu "overwhelming hospitals" and "ICUs at 99%" etc... it's an old trick that the media plays, historically it was to garner ratings/clicks. Is that still the reason? Could be. That article is deeply misleading, at best, in my opinion. It goes to great lengths to paint a very distressing picture, without providing objective analysis. It's a great example of what I've been talking about. I could mislead in the opposite direction. I could say something along the lines of "Great news everyone! Covid is over. In Tarrant County, for the first week of January, there were only a total of 11 deaths out of 22,000 cases, and all of those had underlying conditions. In january, your total risk of dying from covid was .000005, and if you are healthy it's zero! So hug everyone, don't worry!". According to the Tarrant County, TX Covid 19 dashboard and tracker, everything I just wrote it 100% true, but it's highly misleading. It's completely understandable how someone could be mislead by an article like the one you referenced. I typically try to avoid the media reporting like that because the quality is so poor, to quote Thomas Jefferson "Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle." I typically go to reputable medical journals and critically evaluate the studies (to the best of my ability). It gives me a very different picture than articles like that paint.
- jasonladuke0311 5y ago
  > And not just in a “I blare music out loud on the subway” level but a “I leave piles of brush near my neighbors house during wildfire season” level A better analogy would probably be “eating a peanut butter sandwich in the lunchroom”
  - lovich 5y ago
    I do not agree
  - MengerSponge 5y ago
    On a bring your kids to work day, where a coworker explicitly asked everyone to not eat peanut products that day. Because everyone has been clearly and explicitly asked to get vaccinated to protect the vulnerable members of society.
- upsidesinclude 5y ago
  Risking whose life? How? You have been vaccinated, you are not at risk. That's the end of the line. ALL old people are vaccinated, >~99%. The people that die have been alarmingly unhealthy or very old. Almost exclusively. -The idea that there is danger lurking has been planted in your head. If you are obese, you have had two years to get your affairs in order.
MengerSponge 5y ago
Context: I have a PhD in physics, and I've got a great grasp of ventilation and filtration. I don't know much about the immune system... My biology training never progressed much past Mitochondria are the powerhouse of the cell. I don't have qualifications in the subject, but my qualifications help me assess other experts. Experts often get things wrong, but they tend to become less wrong over time. See the shifting consensus about aerosol spread. Experts think vaccines are a good idea. The data continues to reinforce that position. If you were a family member, an old friend, or otherwise closely connected to me, I'd talk to you on the phone. I love my family, and I would not sit down and consume anything with you. You literally could not pay me enough. Not because I abhor a liberal discussion--quite the opposite. You've shown yourself to be irrational and unwilling to adapt your position, and as a result you've managed to catch Covid a second time. Your wife got it too? I'm not going to waste my time and breath on you. Consider this: what would it take for you to reconsider your position? Because billions of doses of several different vaccines have been delivered to an exceptionally weary world, and a tiny fraction of those recipients have seen negative side effects. Vaccinations are more effective at preventing disease than recovering from the native variant: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm?s_cid=mm7044e1_w https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm?s_cid=mm...
- curmudgeon22 5y ago
  Have a look as these case rates by vaccination status, per 100,000. There is a higher case rate among the fully vaccinated since late December. Would you have a meal with a vaccinated family member? Why is that safer than a non-vaccinated? https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/case-numbers-and-spread https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/case-numbers-and-spread (COVID-19 cases by vaccination status)
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    Those rates ignore exposure, testing, and severity differences. Ontario mandated vaccination for high risk work and leisure settings. Mandatory tests are more common in high risk work settings. Elective vaccination and elective testing correlate probably.

lovich 5y ago

I think you’re talking past the other poster. Not getting a vaccine is seen as an anti social action by the vaccine taking group. And not just in a “I blare music out loud on the subway” level but a “I leave piles of brush near my neighbors house during wildfire season” level Society is generally hostile to behavior it views as being in the latter level of seriousness and talking about it over beers doesn’t generally make people more open to the idea that you are risking their lives

claytongulick 5y ago
I agree, on review I was. I was trying to be careful in my phrasing to avoid any form of personal attack or hostility, since the other poster clearly has strong feelings about the subject. > Society is generally hostile to behavior it views as being in the latter level of seriousness and talking about it over beers doesn’t generally make people more open to the idea that you are risking their lives That's what's so strange about this, isn't it? I haven't seen any evidence anywhere that deciding against getting the vaccine puts anyone else's health at risk. I've certainly heard some politicians say this, but I haven't seen it backed by any reputable studies. The phrase "pandemic of the unvaccinated" has been bandied about quite a bit, without any supporting evidence that I'm aware of. From what I've seen, omicron is spread by fully vaccinated folks without much inhibition. Apparently, being vaccinated reduces the severity of an already (relatively) mild variant. So why all the hyperbole? Why the draconian mandates? Why ignore the demographics of vulnerable populations and insist on mandates for everyone? Even children? Risking lives? Unless you have severe comorbidities or are very elderly, there's asymptotically approaching zero risk of a severe outcome from any Covid infection, especially not with omicron. You've struck to the heart of the matter. Somehow, many people have been convinced, against all reason and science, that deciding against getting vaccinated is somehow antisocial. Why? What are the motivations involved? Who is doing this? There's a reasonable argument that skipping that vaccine isn't smart, but antisocial? That's a very different and aggressive narrative. It all comes across as very scary to those of us who don't necessarily agree with the prevailing interventions of the past couple years. They don't appear, on the surface, to be evidence based. Lockdowns certainly were not, and now that we have retrospective data, we know that they were ineffective and in most cases quite harmful. Universal masking wasn't effective, but some states and companies are still requiring it. Why? Shutting down schools was a societal nightmare, with no demonstrated benefit. Yet we see some places doing it again. Why? At each step of the way with these interventions, those who argued against them were also considered to be "antisocial" and were silenced, ridiculed, and othered. Now we have mandated vaccination, ignoring immunity status and demographics. Even for children, who have a much higher risk from the flu than they do Covid. Doesn't it seem strange? School districts don't mandate the flu vaccine, but several have proposed mandatory Covid vaccines? Doesn't it make you wonder why? What could possibly justify Austria's extreme measures, police brutality and draconian mandates? In Australia, a grandmother was just put in jail for not wearing a mask. I've seen videos of similar things happening in the U.S. How can we even pretend to be a civil society and tolerate this? Why have we allowed ourselves to believe that "othering" anyone is ok? These are the first steps down an extraordinarily dangerous path, history shows us. It's been so sad and disheartening to me to watch our society progress from "free hugs" towards a dystopian nightmare. Were we always so fragile? Were our liberal beliefs always just a beautiful lie waiting to be exposed at the first test?
- skulk 5y ago
  > I haven't seen any evidence anywhere that deciding against getting the vaccine puts anyone else's health at risk. How would you square this with unvaccinated people filling up hospitals preventing those with unpreventable health issues from getting care? https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/covid-hospitalizations-pa-vaccines-omicron-20220107.html https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/covid-hospitaliz...
  - claytongulick 5y ago
    That's a great question! My response is that, like everything, there's a ton of nuance. It requires a very careful reading of that article, paying attention to not just what they say, but what they explicitly fail to say. First, I couldn't find any reference in that article to people being denied care, did I miss it? But regardless, it's a really great example of what causes a lot of my deep suspicion. For example, the article details the low hospitalization rate amongst all vaccinated people, with lots of zeros after the decimal point, presenting it as evidence for the effectiveness of the vaccine - however, it doesn't mention anywhere the rate of hospitalization for the unvaccinated. Most likely because the numbers would look very similar to the reader. Another example, the article says that most of the vaccinated covid patients are elderly, or those with severe comorbidities. It doesn't mention, however, that that is also true for the unvaccinated. Another omission - the article doesn't discuss the difference between patients with covid, and patients admitted because of covid. That's an important variable, but until recently it's been a bit suppressed. Another thing the article fails to mention is confounding factors like age when considering vaccination rate and infection rate. It's a confounding factor because (according to what I've read) the most completely vaccinated are young, healthy people. Many cranky older people like myself are not. That's a pretty important confounding factor when you're looking at hospitalizations and comparing populations. The article is pretty heavy on hyperbole, but doesn't mention that hospitals (especially the ICU's) are designed to operate at or near capacity. Hospitals are sized based on the community they serve and must remain mostly utilized in order to remain profitable. One fun thing to do that demonstrates this is to go back and search for articles for years prior to Covid, where there would be hysterical articles about the flu "overwhelming hospitals" and "ICUs at 99%" etc... it's an old trick that the media plays, historically it was to garner ratings/clicks. Is that still the reason? Could be. That article is deeply misleading, at best, in my opinion. It goes to great lengths to paint a very distressing picture, without providing objective analysis. It's a great example of what I've been talking about. I could mislead in the opposite direction. I could say something along the lines of "Great news everyone! Covid is over. In Tarrant County, for the first week of January, there were only a total of 11 deaths out of 22,000 cases, and all of those had underlying conditions. In january, your total risk of dying from covid was .000005, and if you are healthy it's zero! So hug everyone, don't worry!". According to the Tarrant County, TX Covid 19 dashboard and tracker, everything I just wrote it 100% true, but it's highly misleading. It's completely understandable how someone could be mislead by an article like the one you referenced. I typically try to avoid the media reporting like that because the quality is so poor, to quote Thomas Jefferson "Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle." I typically go to reputable medical journals and critically evaluate the studies (to the best of my ability). It gives me a very different picture than articles like that paint.
jasonladuke0311 5y ago
> And not just in a “I blare music out loud on the subway” level but a “I leave piles of brush near my neighbors house during wildfire season” level A better analogy would probably be “eating a peanut butter sandwich in the lunchroom”
- lovich 5y ago
  I do not agree
- MengerSponge 5y ago
  On a bring your kids to work day, where a coworker explicitly asked everyone to not eat peanut products that day. Because everyone has been clearly and explicitly asked to get vaccinated to protect the vulnerable members of society.
upsidesinclude 5y ago
Risking whose life? How? You have been vaccinated, you are not at risk. That's the end of the line. ALL old people are vaccinated, >~99%. The people that die have been alarmingly unhealthy or very old. Almost exclusively. -The idea that there is danger lurking has been planted in your head. If you are obese, you have had two years to get your affairs in order.

MengerSponge 5y ago

Context: I have a PhD in physics, and I've got a great grasp of ventilation and filtration. I don't know much about the immune system... My biology training never progressed much past Mitochondria are the powerhouse of the cell. I don't have qualifications in the subject, but my qualifications help me assess other experts. Experts often get things wrong, but they tend to become less wrong over time. See the shifting consensus about aerosol spread. Experts think vaccines are a good idea. The data continues to reinforce that position. If you were a family member, an old friend, or otherwise closely connected to me, I'd talk to you on the phone. I love my family, and I would not sit down and consume anything with you. You literally could not pay me enough. Not because I abhor a liberal discussion--quite the opposite. You've shown yourself to be irrational and unwilling to adapt your position, and as a result you've managed to catch Covid a second time. Your wife got it too? I'm not going to waste my time and breath on you. Consider this: what would it take for you to reconsider your position? Because billions of doses of several different vaccines have been delivered to an exceptionally weary world, and a tiny fraction of those recipients have seen negative side effects. Vaccinations are more effective at preventing disease than recovering from the native variant: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm?s_cid=mm7044e1_w https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm?s_cid=mm...

curmudgeon22 5y ago
Have a look as these case rates by vaccination status, per 100,000. There is a higher case rate among the fully vaccinated since late December. Would you have a meal with a vaccinated family member? Why is that safer than a non-vaccinated? https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/case-numbers-and-spread https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/case-numbers-and-spread (COVID-19 cases by vaccination status)
- pseudalopex 5y ago
  Those rates ignore exposure, testing, and severity differences. Ontario mandated vaccination for high risk work and leisure settings. Mandatory tests are more common in high risk work settings. Elective vaccination and elective testing correlate probably.