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Adding MobileCoin to Signal really changed my perceptions about just how principled the Signal foundation really is. I have a lot of respect for much of Moxie’s

Adding MobileCoin to Signal really changed my perceptions about just how principled the Signal foundation really is. I have a lot of respect for much of Moxie’s work, but the MobileCoin thing is still a head-scratcher.

ignoramous 5y ago
Why so? Moxie helped design MobileCoin. Besides, his recent post on web3 lays it bare what he thinks of it. MobileCoin, in time, I hope grows up to be a credible alternative to Facebook's USDP (Diem), like how Signal is to WhatsApp. I don't think its inclusion a head-scratcher at all. If anything, I hope it serves its purpose well, and isn't unfairly regulated to oblivion.
- phgn 5y ago
  I got the impression that his web3 post [0] only talks about token incentives, DAOs and other decentralisation for decentralisation's sake. There's no mention of MobileCoin, which I gather he just sees as tool to facilitate anonymous payments (it's a token on top of Stellar). [0] https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html
  - gojomo 5y ago
    Though MobileCoin may have borrowed a consensus mechanism from Stellar, I've seen no indication that it's a token on the Stellar chain.
    - phgn 5y ago
      You're right, sorry I have misread this then. According to Wikipedia, MobileCoin uses its own blockchain based on mechanics from Stellar and Monero [0]. That also makes a lot more sense technically, and explains the supposed 4 years of development [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MobileCoin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MobileCoin [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26726246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26726246
bawolff 5y ago
Which part do you find objectionable? I hate most of the cryptocurrency-bs, but mobilecoin seems to have been designed carefully to avoid most of the objectional aspects of blockchain stuff.
- robby_w_g 5y ago
  Prior discussion can be found here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26724237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26724237 The CEO has posts in the thread as well.
  - phgn 5y ago
    Here's the direct link to the comments from MobileCoin's CEO (not Moxie): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26726246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26726246 Funny how he avoids answering any questions about financial incentives and token sales. Edit: Also note how the mentioned primary goal of MobileCoin is to "fund Signal", not to be a payments layer for it.
    - tabemacsthrow 5y ago
      Moxie presumably got rich from MobileCoin, it was reported that he recently bought an expensive house in Los Angeles.
      - phgn 5y ago
        He sold an earlier company to Twitter, pretty sure he already is "rich" (most of us here are, comparatively). I'd like to think about Moxie as the most honourable person in all of this. Leaving the CEO role could be a sign that he doesn't agree with everything that's going on.
        UncleMeat 5y ago
        And left Twitter after a really short period of time. Usually, your acquihire pay depends on staying for a certain length of time.
tempest_ 5y ago
I balk at any mention of crypto as a rule (since the landscape is so saturated with hucksters) but I have to assume it is to provide a functionality similar to WhatsApp Pay, Venmo and whatever WeChat has. Those in app type payments are a huge part of message app usage in some parts of the world where I am sure Signal would like to increase uptake.
- mathnmusic 5y ago
  Mobilecoin is a quasi-security and not a stablecoin. The price went 5X in the days before Signal announced that they have built MobileCoin integration (in secret). In a way, crypto has given non-profits a way to take profits out to personal accounts.
- cyphertruck 5y ago
  If that was the goal, the lightning network is a far better solution, mire privacy focused too.
cpach 5y ago
It makes me nervous too. However, I will continue to use Signal but without using MobileCoin. I hope Signal will do what’s right. [In my region we already have a good system for mobile payments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swish_(payment) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swish_(payment)]
- Kiro 5y ago
  What if you want to send money to someone outside of your country? The only reason Swish works is because it's co-owned by the major banks in Sweden.
  - cpach 5y ago
    Yeah, in that case MobileCoin might come handy.
Klonoar 5y ago
For context - have you actually tried it? It’s pretty good.
daniel-cussen 5y ago
So I think the motivation was, let's fight censorship. What gets censored? Speech, and also...money. OK then let's enable money too.
ForHackernews 5y ago
It's such a terrible idea for many reasons, but mainly because it's like waving a red flag at ignorant lawmakers: https://www.theverge.com/22872133/signal-cryptocurrency-payments-encryption-invite-regulator-scrutiny https://www.theverge.com/22872133/signal-cryptocurrency-paym...
sneak 5y ago
Uncensorable private communications are useful, but become 100x more useful when they are coupled along with uncensorable private payments.
INTPenis 5y ago
I'm also very skeptical of all things crypto but you did mention principles and I think there is an angle of mobile coin that is clearly ideological and very much fits into Moxie's reputation. That is to take the transfer of money away from old and large institutions.
cyphertruck 5y ago
The lure if getting rich by creating your own money is irresistible and thus corrosive. Even the most principled person will have difficulty ferreting out all the wats it undermines that integrity. Meanwhile bitcoin serves that same purpose and much mire efficiently with lightning. Moxie just bought a $5M house in LA.

ignoramous 5y ago

Why so? Moxie helped design MobileCoin. Besides, his recent post on web3 lays it bare what he thinks of it. MobileCoin, in time, I hope grows up to be a credible alternative to Facebook's USDP (Diem), like how Signal is to WhatsApp. I don't think its inclusion a head-scratcher at all. If anything, I hope it serves its purpose well, and isn't unfairly regulated to oblivion.

phgn 5y ago
I got the impression that his web3 post [0] only talks about token incentives, DAOs and other decentralisation for decentralisation's sake. There's no mention of MobileCoin, which I gather he just sees as tool to facilitate anonymous payments (it's a token on top of Stellar). [0] https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html
- gojomo 5y ago
  Though MobileCoin may have borrowed a consensus mechanism from Stellar, I've seen no indication that it's a token on the Stellar chain.
  - phgn 5y ago
    You're right, sorry I have misread this then. According to Wikipedia, MobileCoin uses its own blockchain based on mechanics from Stellar and Monero [0]. That also makes a lot more sense technically, and explains the supposed 4 years of development [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MobileCoin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MobileCoin [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26726246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26726246

bawolff 5y ago

Which part do you find objectionable? I hate most of the cryptocurrency-bs, but mobilecoin seems to have been designed carefully to avoid most of the objectional aspects of blockchain stuff.

robby_w_g 5y ago
Prior discussion can be found here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26724237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26724237 The CEO has posts in the thread as well.
- phgn 5y ago
  Here's the direct link to the comments from MobileCoin's CEO (not Moxie): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26726246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26726246 Funny how he avoids answering any questions about financial incentives and token sales. Edit: Also note how the mentioned primary goal of MobileCoin is to "fund Signal", not to be a payments layer for it.
  - tabemacsthrow 5y ago
    Moxie presumably got rich from MobileCoin, it was reported that he recently bought an expensive house in Los Angeles.
    - phgn 5y ago
      He sold an earlier company to Twitter, pretty sure he already is "rich" (most of us here are, comparatively). I'd like to think about Moxie as the most honourable person in all of this. Leaving the CEO role could be a sign that he doesn't agree with everything that's going on.
      - UncleMeat 5y ago
        And left Twitter after a really short period of time. Usually, your acquihire pay depends on staying for a certain length of time.

tempest_ 5y ago

I balk at any mention of crypto as a rule (since the landscape is so saturated with hucksters) but I have to assume it is to provide a functionality similar to WhatsApp Pay, Venmo and whatever WeChat has. Those in app type payments are a huge part of message app usage in some parts of the world where I am sure Signal would like to increase uptake.

mathnmusic 5y ago
Mobilecoin is a quasi-security and not a stablecoin. The price went 5X in the days before Signal announced that they have built MobileCoin integration (in secret). In a way, crypto has given non-profits a way to take profits out to personal accounts.
cyphertruck 5y ago
If that was the goal, the lightning network is a far better solution, mire privacy focused too.

cpach 5y ago

It makes me nervous too. However, I will continue to use Signal but without using MobileCoin. I hope Signal will do what’s right. [In my region we already have a good system for mobile payments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swish_(payment) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swish_(payment)]

Kiro 5y ago
What if you want to send money to someone outside of your country? The only reason Swish works is because it's co-owned by the major banks in Sweden.
- cpach 5y ago
  Yeah, in that case MobileCoin might come handy.

Klonoar 5y ago

For context - have you actually tried it? It’s pretty good.

daniel-cussen 5y ago

So I think the motivation was, let's fight censorship. What gets censored? Speech, and also...money. OK then let's enable money too.

ForHackernews 5y ago

It's such a terrible idea for many reasons, but mainly because it's like waving a red flag at ignorant lawmakers: https://www.theverge.com/22872133/signal-cryptocurrency-payments-encryption-invite-regulator-scrutiny https://www.theverge.com/22872133/signal-cryptocurrency-paym...

sneak 5y ago

Uncensorable private communications are useful, but become 100x more useful when they are coupled along with uncensorable private payments.

INTPenis 5y ago

I'm also very skeptical of all things crypto but you did mention principles and I think there is an angle of mobile coin that is clearly ideological and very much fits into Moxie's reputation. That is to take the transfer of money away from old and large institutions.

cyphertruck 5y ago

The lure if getting rich by creating your own money is irresistible and thus corrosive. Even the most principled person will have difficulty ferreting out all the wats it undermines that integrity. Meanwhile bitcoin serves that same purpose and much mire efficiently with lightning. Moxie just bought a $5M house in LA.