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Of course people are done with it. Vaccinations were sold as the solution to the pandemic. Yet worldwide infections are going up at the same speed if not fast

by toshk 5y ago

Of course people are done with it. Vaccinations were sold as the solution to the pandemic. Yet worldwide infections are going up at the same speed if not faster than before vaccinations. But no policy maker acknowledges this. They refer to the lowered death rate, or blame a new variant. But it means that policy that gave people more freedom because of their vaccination status are not having any significant effect on decreasing the spread of the disease, they might even make it worse by allowing infectious people to mingle. Therefore it's very unreasonable and authoritarian to not allow travel, shopping and even fire people over their vaccination status, when an individual decision clearly has a minimal effect on the collective. Yet politicians are not budging but doubling down on vaccination policy, if there was any trust left in the integrity and capability of our leaders...

isubasinghe 5y ago
At the same time though, opening up completely comes at hospitals being overwhelmed, supply chains breaking apart (already happened in my country). It is a bit of a paradox. There is no right action it seems, locking up doesn't make sense but neither does opening up.
lambdaba 5y ago
A lot of people at all levels are having a huge boost in the power (or influence) they can exert. It's hard to convince them to give it away, especially when they have still a sizable crowd cheering them on.
amatecha 5y ago
There's some real irony that the people most likely to spread COVID -- those who are vaccinated and thus don't show symptoms -- are the ones "allowed" to engage in the most risky behaviour like large gatherings at restaurants, bars, theatres, sports arenas. Meanwhile those second-class citizens who are non-vaccinated won't take those risks and will also definitely know if they are sick, hilariously probably behaving the most safely/cautiously, as everyone should. Just as expected, infection rates just skyrocket due to new variants and people thinking "I'm protected" as they act as if there's no pandemic at all. Great.
- felix318 5y ago
  All those public health decisions are taken behind closed doors, we are never told the full story. I suspect the point of the vaccine passports is really to protect the unvaccinated.
- scottbruin 5y ago
  I think you have that backwards. Asymptomatic infection with likely transmission (plus presyptomatic transmission) was a big characteristic of COVID since day one (and one of the reasons it’s so hard to contain compared to say, Ebola). Research seems to show that vaccinated people have shorter windows of spreading virus, and (at least before omicron variant) were much less likely to have virus in their nose without symptoms. From a policy perspective, it’s not clear that unvaccinated individuals will stay home with symptoms since some percentage of them seem to think is not real, not a real threat, etc. Edit: summary article that covers some of this (though keep in mind science is still working through this and each variant changes things) https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/new-data-on-covid-19-transmission-by-vaccinated-individuals https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/new-data-on-covid-19-trans...
  - amatecha 5y ago
    I don't think I have it backwards at all. Non-vaccinated people are not going out and partying (partly because they legally can't, and partly because they probably don't feel like dying). There's very little avenue for them to even catch the virus, let alone spread it, especially because catching it means _probably_ being symptomatic and thus knowing not to be around people. I mean, "breakthrough infections among vaccinated individuals remain uncommon" is simply false?? My friend's entire family of 15 people all got Omicron despite being double-vaccinated and boosted. After they already all had Delta last year as well! That's not "uncommon", that was literally a 100% infection rate, twice, for the family members who gathered.
    - danans 5y ago
      > Non-vaccinated people are not going out and partying (partly because they legally can't, and partly because they probably don't feel like dying). Here is a equally unsubstantiated claim: voluntarily unvaccinated people are going about partying and otherwise carrying on because they largely don't believe that COVID is real or has ever been a problem worse than a cold or flu, or don't care either way. We don't know how differently vaccinated and unvaccinated people are behaving right now. Nobody is collecting that data. The only thing we know is that most of the severe hospitalized cases now are among the unvaccinated, and that the hospitalization/infection rate is significantly lower with Omicron than Delta. Everyone is just trying to figure out how to keep the health system from being overwhelmed since The infection rate for this variant is so much higher. With the exception of the voluntarily unvaccinated, there is little blame to be laid on anyone in this situation. We are all just trying to do a controlled landing into the endemic stage of this virus.
mleonhard 5y ago
Vaccines were never expected to stop the pandemic. They were expected to stop people from dying from the pandemic. They are doing that. So far, vaccines have saved 1.1M Americans from dying from covid and saved 10.3M Americans from needing hospital treatment for covid [0]. Preventable Covid-19 cases can lead to higher health and life insurance rates. Firing employees who refuse the vaccine is smart business. Vaccine mandates save the government a lot of money in several ways: - US government pays $770B a year for medical care for older people and poor children [1]. Covid cases increase those costs. Fortunately, vaccines prevent most cases and reduce severity of all cases. - US government has 23M veterans and pays $40B a year for their medical care [2]. Covid cases increase those costs. Fortunately, vaccines prevent most of the cases. - When a person goes to the hospital and cannot pay, the hospital takes a loss and reduces the tax they pay. Hospitals write off about $40B in uncompensated care every year [3]. Uncompensated covid care makes those numbers bigger and taxes lower. Fortunately, vaccines prevent most serious covid cases. - Workers can't work when they have covid or their dependents have covid. Covid sickness reduces economic output. Because taxes only apply to profits and most businesses have low margins, small reductions in revenue cause large reductions in taxes. Fortunately, vaccines reduce severity of all cases, so people recover more quickly and workers can get back to work faster. [0] https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/there-is-good-news https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/there-is-good... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States) [2] https://www.va.gov/vetdata/docs/QuickFacts/Expenditures_quickfacts.PDF https://www.va.gov/vetdata/docs/QuickFacts/Expenditures_quic... [3] https://www.aha.org/fact-sheets/2020-01-06-fact-sheet-uncompensated-hospital-care-cost https://www.aha.org/fact-sheets/2020-01-06-fact-sheet-uncomp...
- maerF0x0 5y ago
  You're right that they're achieving the goals of the governments, but they're not living up to the public's understanding of "vaccine" -- it's vaporware, or over-promise under-deliver from what we all expected when we were enticed by "vaccine" to take the jab. in a lot of ways this is a PR issue and undermining of good faith more than a facts/data issue. There may not be any specific conspiracy but for whatever reason they're acting in an untrustworthy manner.
- 5y ago
misiti3780 5y ago
Totally, but that trust has been long gone in the US. 1/2 the population stopped paying attention to Dr. Fauci after he lied about masks (understandably). Then we were told that that funerals were bad, but outdoor protests were ok. Then it was racist to even consider the virus came from a lab leak. Then Fauci claimed that technically, he didn't fund gain of function research (in the most scripted,PR speak possible). Then we were told that vaccines would allow us to go back to normal. The level of trust lost by major institutions in the US, both medical and media-based is astounding. Biden said he would end the virus, then he said that there is no federal policy to stop the virus. Trump was racist/xenophobic for closing boarders to China, but Biden closed boarders with South Africa and wasn't racist/xenophobic. This isn't about politics, im double vaxxed and survived omicron. This is about a huge failure across the board, and I'm not sure how you turn it around. We need to change some of the political systems in the US. There needs to be term limits (in congress, supreme court, executive branch). The executive branch needs age limits, with a hard cut-off at like 65. The fact that the choice in 2020 was between septuagenarians is pathetic. If you spent 1% of your time paying attention to anything called media, the gaslighting is obvious.
- aldebran 5y ago
  What did Fauci lie about regarding masks? There were higher infection rates in other countries but Trump focused on China. That does sound racist given other comments he made. Biden Blocking SA flights was dumb given SA alerted the world but wasn’t necessarily the source of Omicron.
  - misiti3780 5y ago
    this isn't a deep fake: https://youtu.be/_2MmX2U2V3c?t=18 https://youtu.be/_2MmX2U2V3c?t=18
    - SixDouble5321 5y ago
      Neither is it evidence of anything. The issue is nuanced and this video is 80% pundits and zero percent damning.

by toshk 5y ago

isubasinghe 5y ago

At the same time though, opening up completely comes at hospitals being overwhelmed, supply chains breaking apart (already happened in my country). It is a bit of a paradox. There is no right action it seems, locking up doesn't make sense but neither does opening up.

lambdaba 5y ago

A lot of people at all levels are having a huge boost in the power (or influence) they can exert. It's hard to convince them to give it away, especially when they have still a sizable crowd cheering them on.

amatecha 5y ago

There's some real irony that the people most likely to spread COVID -- those who are vaccinated and thus don't show symptoms -- are the ones "allowed" to engage in the most risky behaviour like large gatherings at restaurants, bars, theatres, sports arenas. Meanwhile those second-class citizens who are non-vaccinated won't take those risks and will also definitely know if they are sick, hilariously probably behaving the most safely/cautiously, as everyone should. Just as expected, infection rates just skyrocket due to new variants and people thinking "I'm protected" as they act as if there's no pandemic at all. Great.

felix318 5y ago
All those public health decisions are taken behind closed doors, we are never told the full story. I suspect the point of the vaccine passports is really to protect the unvaccinated.
scottbruin 5y ago
I think you have that backwards. Asymptomatic infection with likely transmission (plus presyptomatic transmission) was a big characteristic of COVID since day one (and one of the reasons it’s so hard to contain compared to say, Ebola). Research seems to show that vaccinated people have shorter windows of spreading virus, and (at least before omicron variant) were much less likely to have virus in their nose without symptoms. From a policy perspective, it’s not clear that unvaccinated individuals will stay home with symptoms since some percentage of them seem to think is not real, not a real threat, etc. Edit: summary article that covers some of this (though keep in mind science is still working through this and each variant changes things) https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/new-data-on-covid-19-transmission-by-vaccinated-individuals https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/new-data-on-covid-19-trans...
- amatecha 5y ago
  I don't think I have it backwards at all. Non-vaccinated people are not going out and partying (partly because they legally can't, and partly because they probably don't feel like dying). There's very little avenue for them to even catch the virus, let alone spread it, especially because catching it means _probably_ being symptomatic and thus knowing not to be around people. I mean, "breakthrough infections among vaccinated individuals remain uncommon" is simply false?? My friend's entire family of 15 people all got Omicron despite being double-vaccinated and boosted. After they already all had Delta last year as well! That's not "uncommon", that was literally a 100% infection rate, twice, for the family members who gathered.
  - danans 5y ago
    > Non-vaccinated people are not going out and partying (partly because they legally can't, and partly because they probably don't feel like dying). Here is a equally unsubstantiated claim: voluntarily unvaccinated people are going about partying and otherwise carrying on because they largely don't believe that COVID is real or has ever been a problem worse than a cold or flu, or don't care either way. We don't know how differently vaccinated and unvaccinated people are behaving right now. Nobody is collecting that data. The only thing we know is that most of the severe hospitalized cases now are among the unvaccinated, and that the hospitalization/infection rate is significantly lower with Omicron than Delta. Everyone is just trying to figure out how to keep the health system from being overwhelmed since The infection rate for this variant is so much higher. With the exception of the voluntarily unvaccinated, there is little blame to be laid on anyone in this situation. We are all just trying to do a controlled landing into the endemic stage of this virus.

mleonhard 5y ago

Vaccines were never expected to stop the pandemic. They were expected to stop people from dying from the pandemic. They are doing that. So far, vaccines have saved 1.1M Americans from dying from covid and saved 10.3M Americans from needing hospital treatment for covid [0]. Preventable Covid-19 cases can lead to higher health and life insurance rates. Firing employees who refuse the vaccine is smart business. Vaccine mandates save the government a lot of money in several ways: - US government pays $770B a year for medical care for older people and poor children [1]. Covid cases increase those costs. Fortunately, vaccines prevent most cases and reduce severity of all cases. - US government has 23M veterans and pays $40B a year for their medical care [2]. Covid cases increase those costs. Fortunately, vaccines prevent most of the cases. - When a person goes to the hospital and cannot pay, the hospital takes a loss and reduces the tax they pay. Hospitals write off about $40B in uncompensated care every year [3]. Uncompensated covid care makes those numbers bigger and taxes lower. Fortunately, vaccines prevent most serious covid cases. - Workers can't work when they have covid or their dependents have covid. Covid sickness reduces economic output. Because taxes only apply to profits and most businesses have low margins, small reductions in revenue cause large reductions in taxes. Fortunately, vaccines reduce severity of all cases, so people recover more quickly and workers can get back to work faster. [0] https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/there-is-good-news https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/there-is-good... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States) [2] https://www.va.gov/vetdata/docs/QuickFacts/Expenditures_quickfacts.PDF https://www.va.gov/vetdata/docs/QuickFacts/Expenditures_quic... [3] https://www.aha.org/fact-sheets/2020-01-06-fact-sheet-uncompensated-hospital-care-cost https://www.aha.org/fact-sheets/2020-01-06-fact-sheet-uncomp...

maerF0x0 5y ago
You're right that they're achieving the goals of the governments, but they're not living up to the public's understanding of "vaccine" -- it's vaporware, or over-promise under-deliver from what we all expected when we were enticed by "vaccine" to take the jab. in a lot of ways this is a PR issue and undermining of good faith more than a facts/data issue. There may not be any specific conspiracy but for whatever reason they're acting in an untrustworthy manner.
5y ago

misiti3780 5y ago

Totally, but that trust has been long gone in the US. 1/2 the population stopped paying attention to Dr. Fauci after he lied about masks (understandably). Then we were told that that funerals were bad, but outdoor protests were ok. Then it was racist to even consider the virus came from a lab leak. Then Fauci claimed that technically, he didn't fund gain of function research (in the most scripted,PR speak possible). Then we were told that vaccines would allow us to go back to normal. The level of trust lost by major institutions in the US, both medical and media-based is astounding. Biden said he would end the virus, then he said that there is no federal policy to stop the virus. Trump was racist/xenophobic for closing boarders to China, but Biden closed boarders with South Africa and wasn't racist/xenophobic. This isn't about politics, im double vaxxed and survived omicron. This is about a huge failure across the board, and I'm not sure how you turn it around. We need to change some of the political systems in the US. There needs to be term limits (in congress, supreme court, executive branch). The executive branch needs age limits, with a hard cut-off at like 65. The fact that the choice in 2020 was between septuagenarians is pathetic. If you spent 1% of your time paying attention to anything called media, the gaslighting is obvious.

aldebran 5y ago
What did Fauci lie about regarding masks? There were higher infection rates in other countries but Trump focused on China. That does sound racist given other comments he made. Biden Blocking SA flights was dumb given SA alerted the world but wasn’t necessarily the source of Omicron.
- misiti3780 5y ago
  this isn't a deep fake: https://youtu.be/_2MmX2U2V3c?t=18 https://youtu.be/_2MmX2U2V3c?t=18
  - SixDouble5321 5y ago
    Neither is it evidence of anything. The issue is nuanced and this video is 80% pundits and zero percent damning.