4 ms·

> Also everyone seems to forget that the history of unions in the US is inseparable from mafia racketeering. This is disingenuous, because the sort of unions t

by danans 5y ago

> Also everyone seems to forget that the history of unions in the US is inseparable from mafia racketeering. This is disingenuous, because the sort of unions that were involved with racketeering were manufacturing unions, specifically the Teamsters, and overlapping a period during the late 19th century where corporations often employed actual violence (with paid armed security squads) against workers who attempted to organize. Both were wrong to engage in criminal behavior, but the incentives to do so were pretty strong. Furthermore, because the workers for these industries were drawn from largely impoverished communities where low-level organized rackets were practically a necessity for survival, it's not at all surprising that the relationships and methods continued into the workplace. There is, however, no history of mafia racketeering with teachers or nurses unions, and regardless of one's opinion about tech worker unions, there is no reason to think that they would have any affinity for organized crime outfits.

busterarm 5y ago
The American Mafia ran it's biggest and most profitable racket, concrete for construction in NYC, aka the Concrete Club, from 1977 to 1985...long after the period you're talking about. You can even read about the corruption and (non-mafia) racketeering involved in NYC's lifeguard union, which continues literally to this very day. In most major cities, the mafia controlled a majority of the unions and used them to effectively provide mafia made men and associates with no-show jobs to provide non-earners in their organization with a paycheck -- on top of all of that they would find ways to skim a few percent off any labor being done. It's also easy for you to bring up teachers and nurses' unions not being mafia controlled -- jobs predominantly staffed with women. The American mafia literally cannot have women members per its own rules, so of course they couldn't influence those unions. If you do your research though, you'll see that the Russian mafia is heavily skimming from medical services through control of the nurses' union in Germany. There is no reason they couldn't replicate that here.
- danans 5y ago
  > It's also easy for you to bring up teachers and nurses' unions not being mafia controlled -- jobs predominantly staffed with women. The American mafia literally cannot have women members per its own rules, so of course they couldn't influence those unions. How about the Aerospace Engineer's union, then: https://www.speea.org/ https://www.speea.org/ Pretty sure it's predominately male. > If you do your research though, you'll see that the Russian mafia is heavily skimming from medical services through control of the nurses' union in Germany. There is no reason they couldn't replicate that here. Organized crime could get entrenched in any industry given enough incentives and lack of rule of law, and just as much: lack of protection by the law for regular people. I could just as easily say the mafia could start heavily skimming the bagel business. If you have any evidence that teachers and nurses unions are any more likely to fall into that, or that current manufacturing or professional unions are beholden to organized crime, present it. Otherwise it's just an attempt to smear all industries' organized labor with the past of a very specific sector.
  - busterarm 5y ago
    > How about the Aerospace Engineer's union, then: https://www.speea.org/ https://www.speea.org/ Pretty sure it's predominately male. And up until a decade or two ago had maybe a single-digit number of possible employers you could be working for. Also fucking goombahs don't have engineering degrees. Again, you're talking about another field the mafia, largely uneducated street people, could never penetrate. Let's at least start your argument from a place of intellectual honesty.
    - danans 5y ago
      > Let's at least start your argument from a place of intellectual honesty. Your original statement: > Also everyone seems to forget that the history of unions in the US is inseparable from mafia racketeering. As we've discussed, major parts of union history has nothing to do with mafia racketeering. Falsely associating all organized labor with the parts that were involved with organized crime is intellectually dishonest.
      - busterarm 5y ago
        Right, and despite all of the decades of evidence of problems with union corruption, the pro-unionists still beat the drum of "more unions. right now. we'll figure out the problems later." How about no. How about solve the problems that make corruption inevitable and then maybe I'll support your union.
        danans 5y ago
        > How about no. How about solve the problems that make corruption inevitable and then maybe I'll support your union. All systems that organize and collect power inevitably experience corruption, including corporations, governments, and religious institutions, not just unions. Even small businesses and sole proprietorships have incentives to engage in corrupt practices like bribery, especially at the local level. Singling out unions for corruption is selective reasoning.
        JAlexoid 5y ago

by danans 5y ago

busterarm 5y ago

The American Mafia ran it's biggest and most profitable racket, concrete for construction in NYC, aka the Concrete Club, from 1977 to 1985...long after the period you're talking about. You can even read about the corruption and (non-mafia) racketeering involved in NYC's lifeguard union, which continues literally to this very day. In most major cities, the mafia controlled a majority of the unions and used them to effectively provide mafia made men and associates with no-show jobs to provide non-earners in their organization with a paycheck -- on top of all of that they would find ways to skim a few percent off any labor being done. It's also easy for you to bring up teachers and nurses' unions not being mafia controlled -- jobs predominantly staffed with women. The American mafia literally cannot have women members per its own rules, so of course they couldn't influence those unions. If you do your research though, you'll see that the Russian mafia is heavily skimming from medical services through control of the nurses' union in Germany. There is no reason they couldn't replicate that here.

danans 5y ago
> It's also easy for you to bring up teachers and nurses' unions not being mafia controlled -- jobs predominantly staffed with women. The American mafia literally cannot have women members per its own rules, so of course they couldn't influence those unions. How about the Aerospace Engineer's union, then: https://www.speea.org/ https://www.speea.org/ Pretty sure it's predominately male. > If you do your research though, you'll see that the Russian mafia is heavily skimming from medical services through control of the nurses' union in Germany. There is no reason they couldn't replicate that here. Organized crime could get entrenched in any industry given enough incentives and lack of rule of law, and just as much: lack of protection by the law for regular people. I could just as easily say the mafia could start heavily skimming the bagel business. If you have any evidence that teachers and nurses unions are any more likely to fall into that, or that current manufacturing or professional unions are beholden to organized crime, present it. Otherwise it's just an attempt to smear all industries' organized labor with the past of a very specific sector.
- busterarm 5y ago
  > How about the Aerospace Engineer's union, then: https://www.speea.org/ https://www.speea.org/ Pretty sure it's predominately male. And up until a decade or two ago had maybe a single-digit number of possible employers you could be working for. Also fucking goombahs don't have engineering degrees. Again, you're talking about another field the mafia, largely uneducated street people, could never penetrate. Let's at least start your argument from a place of intellectual honesty.
  - danans 5y ago
    > Let's at least start your argument from a place of intellectual honesty. Your original statement: > Also everyone seems to forget that the history of unions in the US is inseparable from mafia racketeering. As we've discussed, major parts of union history has nothing to do with mafia racketeering. Falsely associating all organized labor with the parts that were involved with organized crime is intellectually dishonest.
    - busterarm 5y ago
      Right, and despite all of the decades of evidence of problems with union corruption, the pro-unionists still beat the drum of "more unions. right now. we'll figure out the problems later." How about no. How about solve the problems that make corruption inevitable and then maybe I'll support your union.
      - danans 5y ago
        > How about no. How about solve the problems that make corruption inevitable and then maybe I'll support your union. All systems that organize and collect power inevitably experience corruption, including corporations, governments, and religious institutions, not just unions. Even small businesses and sole proprietorships have incentives to engage in corrupt practices like bribery, especially at the local level. Singling out unions for corruption is selective reasoning.
      - JAlexoid 5y ago