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Indeed. Also everyone seems to forget that the history of unions in the US is inseparable from mafia racketeering. To the point that the federal government ha

Indeed. Also everyone seems to forget that the history of unions in the US is inseparable from mafia racketeering. To the point that the federal government had to break some of the power of unions in order to break up the effectiveness of mafia racketeering.

danans 5y ago
> Also everyone seems to forget that the history of unions in the US is inseparable from mafia racketeering. This is disingenuous, because the sort of unions that were involved with racketeering were manufacturing unions, specifically the Teamsters, and overlapping a period during the late 19th century where corporations often employed actual violence (with paid armed security squads) against workers who attempted to organize. Both were wrong to engage in criminal behavior, but the incentives to do so were pretty strong. Furthermore, because the workers for these industries were drawn from largely impoverished communities where low-level organized rackets were practically a necessity for survival, it's not at all surprising that the relationships and methods continued into the workplace. There is, however, no history of mafia racketeering with teachers or nurses unions, and regardless of one's opinion about tech worker unions, there is no reason to think that they would have any affinity for organized crime outfits.
- busterarm 5y ago
  The American Mafia ran it's biggest and most profitable racket, concrete for construction in NYC, aka the Concrete Club, from 1977 to 1985...long after the period you're talking about. You can even read about the corruption and (non-mafia) racketeering involved in NYC's lifeguard union, which continues literally to this very day. In most major cities, the mafia controlled a majority of the unions and used them to effectively provide mafia made men and associates with no-show jobs to provide non-earners in their organization with a paycheck -- on top of all of that they would find ways to skim a few percent off any labor being done. It's also easy for you to bring up teachers and nurses' unions not being mafia controlled -- jobs predominantly staffed with women. The American mafia literally cannot have women members per its own rules, so of course they couldn't influence those unions. If you do your research though, you'll see that the Russian mafia is heavily skimming from medical services through control of the nurses' union in Germany. There is no reason they couldn't replicate that here.
  - danans 5y ago
    > It's also easy for you to bring up teachers and nurses' unions not being mafia controlled -- jobs predominantly staffed with women. The American mafia literally cannot have women members per its own rules, so of course they couldn't influence those unions. How about the Aerospace Engineer's union, then: https://www.speea.org/ https://www.speea.org/ Pretty sure it's predominately male. > If you do your research though, you'll see that the Russian mafia is heavily skimming from medical services through control of the nurses' union in Germany. There is no reason they couldn't replicate that here. Organized crime could get entrenched in any industry given enough incentives and lack of rule of law, and just as much: lack of protection by the law for regular people. I could just as easily say the mafia could start heavily skimming the bagel business. If you have any evidence that teachers and nurses unions are any more likely to fall into that, or that current manufacturing or professional unions are beholden to organized crime, present it. Otherwise it's just an attempt to smear all industries' organized labor with the past of a very specific sector.
    - busterarm 5y ago
      > How about the Aerospace Engineer's union, then: https://www.speea.org/ https://www.speea.org/ Pretty sure it's predominately male. And up until a decade or two ago had maybe a single-digit number of possible employers you could be working for. Also fucking goombahs don't have engineering degrees. Again, you're talking about another field the mafia, largely uneducated street people, could never penetrate. Let's at least start your argument from a place of intellectual honesty.
      - danans 5y ago
        > Let's at least start your argument from a place of intellectual honesty. Your original statement: > Also everyone seems to forget that the history of unions in the US is inseparable from mafia racketeering. As we've discussed, major parts of union history has nothing to do with mafia racketeering. Falsely associating all organized labor with the parts that were involved with organized crime is intellectually dishonest.
bathtub365 5y ago
This is one of the anti-union talking points from documents produced by IRI (the firm Google has hired to fight unionization efforts) in a previous union-busting effort. > “Talk about any bad experience you or others you know may have had with unions,” the document instructs managers. “Also talk about the union’s past. Tell employees about documented history of Mafia influence and corruption of unions. Tell employees examples where union leaders have embezzled money from their members’ pension and health insurance funds. Tell them about situations where unions have made promises and have not delivered.” https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2007/03/14/hospital-document-suggests-anti-union-mentality/ https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2007/03/14/hospital-document-...
- philwelch 5y ago
  That doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
  - remram 5y ago
    That doesn't mean it's right. In this case, it is wrong; collective bargaining goes way back, and while it is true that some unions officers have been crooks (and indeed controlled by Mafia), unions did not come from the Mafia. It's one of those technically true statements. Like "the history of the web in the US is inseparable from child pornography". Yes, some regulations were put in place because of the existence of child porn, but the implication that the web was created by/for child molesters is wrong.
    - busterarm 5y ago
      I never alleged that though. I just said that you can't separate the existence of unions from racketeering. Union racketeering still goes on today.
      - remram 5y ago
        That's only true in the same sense that you "can't separate" the existence of hardware stores from murders. People still get killed by hammers today.
gremlinsinc 5y ago
Can you elaborate how the Pinkerington's opening fire on union strikers, isn't Mafia racketeering and criminal behavior? Anti-union behavior has been FAR more corrupt than unionizing. The history bears this out. CEO's and Owners have a lot more to lose, and a lot more to fight with than workers who have nothing and are begging for the scraps they do get.
- busterarm 5y ago
  Yes, let's weigh the single incident of the Homestead Strike of 1892 against decades of systemic corruption. That's a fair comparison.
UncleMeat 5y ago
Yes, organized crime is part of the history of unions. Illegal violence has absolutely been used against scabs. But we don't hold private corporations to the same standard here. Industrialists cannot be separated from a history of outright murder of labor activists. Rockefeller Jr. had labor activists shot with machine guns. But we don't see many calls to avoid working for any private business because of this connection.

danans 5y ago

> Also everyone seems to forget that the history of unions in the US is inseparable from mafia racketeering. This is disingenuous, because the sort of unions that were involved with racketeering were manufacturing unions, specifically the Teamsters, and overlapping a period during the late 19th century where corporations often employed actual violence (with paid armed security squads) against workers who attempted to organize. Both were wrong to engage in criminal behavior, but the incentives to do so were pretty strong. Furthermore, because the workers for these industries were drawn from largely impoverished communities where low-level organized rackets were practically a necessity for survival, it's not at all surprising that the relationships and methods continued into the workplace. There is, however, no history of mafia racketeering with teachers or nurses unions, and regardless of one's opinion about tech worker unions, there is no reason to think that they would have any affinity for organized crime outfits.

busterarm 5y ago
The American Mafia ran it's biggest and most profitable racket, concrete for construction in NYC, aka the Concrete Club, from 1977 to 1985...long after the period you're talking about. You can even read about the corruption and (non-mafia) racketeering involved in NYC's lifeguard union, which continues literally to this very day. In most major cities, the mafia controlled a majority of the unions and used them to effectively provide mafia made men and associates with no-show jobs to provide non-earners in their organization with a paycheck -- on top of all of that they would find ways to skim a few percent off any labor being done. It's also easy for you to bring up teachers and nurses' unions not being mafia controlled -- jobs predominantly staffed with women. The American mafia literally cannot have women members per its own rules, so of course they couldn't influence those unions. If you do your research though, you'll see that the Russian mafia is heavily skimming from medical services through control of the nurses' union in Germany. There is no reason they couldn't replicate that here.
- danans 5y ago
  > It's also easy for you to bring up teachers and nurses' unions not being mafia controlled -- jobs predominantly staffed with women. The American mafia literally cannot have women members per its own rules, so of course they couldn't influence those unions. How about the Aerospace Engineer's union, then: https://www.speea.org/ https://www.speea.org/ Pretty sure it's predominately male. > If you do your research though, you'll see that the Russian mafia is heavily skimming from medical services through control of the nurses' union in Germany. There is no reason they couldn't replicate that here. Organized crime could get entrenched in any industry given enough incentives and lack of rule of law, and just as much: lack of protection by the law for regular people. I could just as easily say the mafia could start heavily skimming the bagel business. If you have any evidence that teachers and nurses unions are any more likely to fall into that, or that current manufacturing or professional unions are beholden to organized crime, present it. Otherwise it's just an attempt to smear all industries' organized labor with the past of a very specific sector.
  - busterarm 5y ago
    > How about the Aerospace Engineer's union, then: https://www.speea.org/ https://www.speea.org/ Pretty sure it's predominately male. And up until a decade or two ago had maybe a single-digit number of possible employers you could be working for. Also fucking goombahs don't have engineering degrees. Again, you're talking about another field the mafia, largely uneducated street people, could never penetrate. Let's at least start your argument from a place of intellectual honesty.
    - danans 5y ago
      > Let's at least start your argument from a place of intellectual honesty. Your original statement: > Also everyone seems to forget that the history of unions in the US is inseparable from mafia racketeering. As we've discussed, major parts of union history has nothing to do with mafia racketeering. Falsely associating all organized labor with the parts that were involved with organized crime is intellectually dishonest.

bathtub365 5y ago

This is one of the anti-union talking points from documents produced by IRI (the firm Google has hired to fight unionization efforts) in a previous union-busting effort. > “Talk about any bad experience you or others you know may have had with unions,” the document instructs managers. “Also talk about the union’s past. Tell employees about documented history of Mafia influence and corruption of unions. Tell employees examples where union leaders have embezzled money from their members’ pension and health insurance funds. Tell them about situations where unions have made promises and have not delivered.” https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2007/03/14/hospital-document-suggests-anti-union-mentality/ https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2007/03/14/hospital-document-...

philwelch 5y ago
That doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
- remram 5y ago
  That doesn't mean it's right. In this case, it is wrong; collective bargaining goes way back, and while it is true that some unions officers have been crooks (and indeed controlled by Mafia), unions did not come from the Mafia. It's one of those technically true statements. Like "the history of the web in the US is inseparable from child pornography". Yes, some regulations were put in place because of the existence of child porn, but the implication that the web was created by/for child molesters is wrong.
  - busterarm 5y ago
    I never alleged that though. I just said that you can't separate the existence of unions from racketeering. Union racketeering still goes on today.
    - remram 5y ago
      That's only true in the same sense that you "can't separate" the existence of hardware stores from murders. People still get killed by hammers today.

gremlinsinc 5y ago

Can you elaborate how the Pinkerington's opening fire on union strikers, isn't Mafia racketeering and criminal behavior? Anti-union behavior has been FAR more corrupt than unionizing. The history bears this out. CEO's and Owners have a lot more to lose, and a lot more to fight with than workers who have nothing and are begging for the scraps they do get.

busterarm 5y ago
Yes, let's weigh the single incident of the Homestead Strike of 1892 against decades of systemic corruption. That's a fair comparison.

UncleMeat 5y ago

Yes, organized crime is part of the history of unions. Illegal violence has absolutely been used against scabs. But we don't hold private corporations to the same standard here. Industrialists cannot be separated from a history of outright murder of labor activists. Rockefeller Jr. had labor activists shot with machine guns. But we don't see many calls to avoid working for any private business because of this connection.