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It’s a real shame that the middle and upper classes in the US have abandoned having their teens work in favor of various, expensive, college application boostin

It’s a real shame that the middle and upper classes in the US have abandoned having their teens work in favor of various, expensive, college application boosting fluff. I went to work at McDonalds at age 15 and was part of a union. I have direct experience with what that is like. I don’t need to get my knowledge on the subject from flamewars between people pushing ideological agendas (most of whom themselves have apparently never had direct experience.)

busterarm 5y ago
Shh, every time those of us who have been in actual unions and actually had terrible experiences voice our opinions we get downvoted into oblivion. It's not worth it, m8.
- jason0597 5y ago
  So the current arrangement of service workers being paid slave wages and given disgusting conditions is working fine?
  - busterarm 5y ago
    My three union jobs were service worker jobs; what are you trying to imply here?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    "This is fine" is not the same thing as "X is not the solution to this." Example better solution: UBI, so that those workers can tell the boss where to stick it without starving to death, and the company then has to offer better working conditions in order to convince anyone to show up.
  - bagacrap 5y ago
    I don't see how individual unions help solve this problem. A union that makes meaningful changes to conditions and wages at one employer would hobble that employer's ability to compete, they'd go out of business, and a non-unionized workforce/employer would replace them. This seems like a job for government and/or market forces. The latter actually have been working well recently near where I live, as the labor shortage has caused many employers in the restaurant industry to raise starting salaries to ~$20/hr before tips. That said, this article is about tech workers, not line cooks, so any conclusions drawn from union experiences at $COFFEECHAIN are perhaps not easily mappable to Google.
    - handoflixue 5y ago
      Do you have examples of how unionization destroys the ability to compete? Because I know of tons of union jobs around where I live, and they routinely compete with non-union jobs. Many of the union companies are major players who have been around for decades, which suggests that a happy, well-treated workforce might actually be an advantage.
      - bagacrap 5y ago
        Detroit based auto makers would be the most obvious example. If agreeing to union demands did not in some way cost the employer something, why would it need to be bargained out of them?
        handoflixue 5y ago
        > If agreeing to union demands did not in some way cost the employer something, why would it need to be bargained out of them? It costs them control and social status. A lot of people have egos that don't like yielding either of those, even if it's otherwise a win-win exchange. Middle management has a huge incentive to produce short-term resume-building actions at the expense of long-term gains, so you should be able to quite fruitfully thwart those executives and produce gains for both the company and the rest of employees.
  - bradleyjg 5y ago
    Why do you think such a strident and unnuanced statement is going to be convincing to someone that’s already implied he has direct experience in the subject? Don’t you have any real questions for someone that lived it, instead of the same party line all the time?
- thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
  Please don't make irrefutable arguments based on theoretical downvotes
  - busterarm 5y ago
    So much for theoretical...
    - thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
      It wasn't for your views, it was for your self-pitying method of debate that defies any ability to discuss it seriously.
      - busterarm 5y ago
        No, see, I've been part of this debate several times on HN. If HN is anything it's predictable.
- handoflixue 5y ago
  If we take anecdotal experiences as useful, then the fact that you're getting downvoted is anecdotal evidence that more people have had positive experiences with unions, and your experiences are just unfortunate outliers (and anything big enough to make Hacker News is big enough to have a lot of outliers) Since your whole goal is to share anecdotal data, I'd assume you'd be more responsive to receiving such data.
0xy 5y ago
I also worked for McDonalds in my teens and was covered by a union-negotiated agreement. All it did was prevent me from working as much as I wanted, with ridiculous red tape rules. The union actively depressed my earning potential. That's after growing up in terrible schools with incompetent and abusive teachers who were never admonished or fired because of union protection (side note: teacher's unions regularly protect sexual predators).
gremlinsinc 5y ago
Was this at an imaginary McDonad's? McD's was my first job back in 96 at 16. They didn't have any unions then, and I've not seen or heard of any existing. For the most part most fast food restaurants do not have any unions. You want to look at a good example of a union look at the one for Autoworkers. My friend's dad growing up was in a good factory job, no college. He was earning >$22/hour, plus a pension, plus decent time off for vacations and things and the mom could be a stay-at-home mom. Even on a programmer's salary, my wife and I still barely make our bills today. Rent's skyrocketed, cost of living has skyrocketed, and you need not look any further than the fact that nearly ever CEO (read: Billionaire) almost unamously has the goal to keep you, me, and everybody they know out of a Union. Unions are not socialism. There is nothing bad about unions, some are better than others taken together all are better than none.
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  Because you never heard of it you assume I’m lying? If that’s how you conduct yourself I’m not surprised you can’t find a good job.

busterarm 5y ago

Shh, every time those of us who have been in actual unions and actually had terrible experiences voice our opinions we get downvoted into oblivion. It's not worth it, m8.

jason0597 5y ago
So the current arrangement of service workers being paid slave wages and given disgusting conditions is working fine?
- busterarm 5y ago
  My three union jobs were service worker jobs; what are you trying to imply here?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  "This is fine" is not the same thing as "X is not the solution to this." Example better solution: UBI, so that those workers can tell the boss where to stick it without starving to death, and the company then has to offer better working conditions in order to convince anyone to show up.
- bagacrap 5y ago
  I don't see how individual unions help solve this problem. A union that makes meaningful changes to conditions and wages at one employer would hobble that employer's ability to compete, they'd go out of business, and a non-unionized workforce/employer would replace them. This seems like a job for government and/or market forces. The latter actually have been working well recently near where I live, as the labor shortage has caused many employers in the restaurant industry to raise starting salaries to ~$20/hr before tips. That said, this article is about tech workers, not line cooks, so any conclusions drawn from union experiences at $COFFEECHAIN are perhaps not easily mappable to Google.
  - handoflixue 5y ago
    Do you have examples of how unionization destroys the ability to compete? Because I know of tons of union jobs around where I live, and they routinely compete with non-union jobs. Many of the union companies are major players who have been around for decades, which suggests that a happy, well-treated workforce might actually be an advantage.
    - bagacrap 5y ago
      Detroit based auto makers would be the most obvious example. If agreeing to union demands did not in some way cost the employer something, why would it need to be bargained out of them?
      - handoflixue 5y ago
        > If agreeing to union demands did not in some way cost the employer something, why would it need to be bargained out of them? It costs them control and social status. A lot of people have egos that don't like yielding either of those, even if it's otherwise a win-win exchange. Middle management has a huge incentive to produce short-term resume-building actions at the expense of long-term gains, so you should be able to quite fruitfully thwart those executives and produce gains for both the company and the rest of employees.
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  Why do you think such a strident and unnuanced statement is going to be convincing to someone that’s already implied he has direct experience in the subject? Don’t you have any real questions for someone that lived it, instead of the same party line all the time?
thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
Please don't make irrefutable arguments based on theoretical downvotes
- busterarm 5y ago
  So much for theoretical...
  - thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
    It wasn't for your views, it was for your self-pitying method of debate that defies any ability to discuss it seriously.
    - busterarm 5y ago
      No, see, I've been part of this debate several times on HN. If HN is anything it's predictable.
handoflixue 5y ago
If we take anecdotal experiences as useful, then the fact that you're getting downvoted is anecdotal evidence that more people have had positive experiences with unions, and your experiences are just unfortunate outliers (and anything big enough to make Hacker News is big enough to have a lot of outliers) Since your whole goal is to share anecdotal data, I'd assume you'd be more responsive to receiving such data.

0xy 5y ago

I also worked for McDonalds in my teens and was covered by a union-negotiated agreement. All it did was prevent me from working as much as I wanted, with ridiculous red tape rules. The union actively depressed my earning potential. That's after growing up in terrible schools with incompetent and abusive teachers who were never admonished or fired because of union protection (side note: teacher's unions regularly protect sexual predators).

gremlinsinc 5y ago

Was this at an imaginary McDonad's? McD's was my first job back in 96 at 16. They didn't have any unions then, and I've not seen or heard of any existing. For the most part most fast food restaurants do not have any unions. You want to look at a good example of a union look at the one for Autoworkers. My friend's dad growing up was in a good factory job, no college. He was earning >$22/hour, plus a pension, plus decent time off for vacations and things and the mom could be a stay-at-home mom. Even on a programmer's salary, my wife and I still barely make our bills today. Rent's skyrocketed, cost of living has skyrocketed, and you need not look any further than the fact that nearly ever CEO (read: Billionaire) almost unamously has the goal to keep you, me, and everybody they know out of a Union. Unions are not socialism. There is nothing bad about unions, some are better than others taken together all are better than none.

bradleyjg 5y ago
Because you never heard of it you assume I’m lying? If that’s how you conduct yourself I’m not surprised you can’t find a good job.