5 ms·

Some of us have seen the exorbitant damage bad unions can cause, for example ILWU destroying Portland, OR’s container shipping industry in a bid to steal two jo

by n8cpdx 5y ago

Some of us have seen the exorbitant damage bad unions can cause, for example ILWU destroying Portland, OR’s container shipping industry in a bid to steal two jobs from another union. https://www.universalcargo.com/jury-hits-ilwu-with-93m-verdict-for-what-union-did-to-port-of-portland/ https://www.universalcargo.com/jury-hits-ilwu-with-93m-verdi... (less industry-oriented source: https://www.wweek.com/news/2019/11/29/longshore-union-faces-bankruptcy-over-two-jobs-in-portland/ https://www.wweek.com/news/2019/11/29/longshore-union-faces-...) See also: public sector unions.

brightstep 5y ago
Some of us have seen the exorbitant damage corporations can cause, for example Exxon et al knowingly destroying the planet in a bid to extract profit. No organization is inherently good. Unions can be led by bad actors, and that doesn't diminish their overall value. They provide employees with a countervailing force to use against employers who would otherwise be mostly free to squeeze them for every penny, whether via cut wages, unpaid overtime, etc.
- sershe 5y ago
  Monopolistic organizations of all kinds tend to be bad. The corporate monopolies are frowned upon and at least in theory, and sometimes in practice, curbed by the government. Union monopolies are actively protected by the government. If the unions operated more like competing guilds with low barrier to entry and anti-monopoly rules similar to corporations, and rules were e.g. you can only hire factory workers from a union but there are 5 competing unions in town, there could be an argument for their usefulness. As such they are about as evil (especially in the public sector where there's no competition pretty much by definition) as if e.g. Google had legal monopoly on internet search. Or Exxon had legal monopoly on oil production and unquestioning government support.
dls2016 5y ago
Unions are comprised of large groups of people, and are subject to make the same kinds of "self-serving" mistakes as any other large group of people (like corporations and governments and universities and churches and...). Which is entirely the point! Why should we trust a large monopoly like Google to have workers' best interests at heart when there's no counter-balancing force with the same power (be it a union, or trust-busting arm of the federal government)? Everyone forgets that Google and Apple already colluded to suppress wages! https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2015/01/16/377614477/tech-giants-will-pay-415-million-to-settle-employees-lawsuit https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2015/01/16/37...
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  > Why should we trust a large monopoly like Google to have workers' best interests at heart when there's no counter-balancing force with the same power (be it a union, or trust-busting arm of the federal government)? The answer is that we shouldn't, but the latter solution is much better than the former.
- djfy6fdyyf 5y ago
- brightball 5y ago
  There is another counter balancing force...numerous other opportunities. It's not a situation like Boeing where there's a very limited number of other places that you can take your skills.
  - throwaway2048 5y ago
    The counterbalancing forces google actively colludes with you mean?
    - brightball 5y ago
      Is Google colluding with every employer and entrepreneur in the country?
      - throwaway2048 5y ago
        Do they need to be to poke a significant hole in your argument? They colluded with basically all of the largest high paying employers in the SV ecosystem. That is absolutely going to have a massive systematic effect on compensation.
        brightball 5y ago
        Does a union fix that?
lucumo 5y ago
Not just to the company. They aren't always good for all the people they claim to represent. I'm not American, and live in a place where unions have pretty strong protection and usually have industry-wide negotiating power. They are also gerontocracies and will screw over young people to favour the old. I will no longer work for places where unions negotiate. I prefer the clear incentives of an employer over the unclear incentives of union negotiators. You never know when they're honestly standing side-by-side with you or when they're just there to pick your pockets.
- kwhitefoot 5y ago
  > They are also gerontocracies and will screw over young people to favour the old. This probably says as much about the wider society that you live in as it does about the unions.
  - lucumo 5y ago
    My wider society is much more balanced in is treatment of the age groups. There's definitely issues, but when the unions get involved there's no balance anymore. This society is not a gerontocracy either. There's quite a few 30-somethings in the government.

by n8cpdx 5y ago

brightstep 5y ago

Some of us have seen the exorbitant damage corporations can cause, for example Exxon et al knowingly destroying the planet in a bid to extract profit. No organization is inherently good. Unions can be led by bad actors, and that doesn't diminish their overall value. They provide employees with a countervailing force to use against employers who would otherwise be mostly free to squeeze them for every penny, whether via cut wages, unpaid overtime, etc.

sershe 5y ago
Monopolistic organizations of all kinds tend to be bad. The corporate monopolies are frowned upon and at least in theory, and sometimes in practice, curbed by the government. Union monopolies are actively protected by the government. If the unions operated more like competing guilds with low barrier to entry and anti-monopoly rules similar to corporations, and rules were e.g. you can only hire factory workers from a union but there are 5 competing unions in town, there could be an argument for their usefulness. As such they are about as evil (especially in the public sector where there's no competition pretty much by definition) as if e.g. Google had legal monopoly on internet search. Or Exxon had legal monopoly on oil production and unquestioning government support.

dls2016 5y ago

Unions are comprised of large groups of people, and are subject to make the same kinds of "self-serving" mistakes as any other large group of people (like corporations and governments and universities and churches and...). Which is entirely the point! Why should we trust a large monopoly like Google to have workers' best interests at heart when there's no counter-balancing force with the same power (be it a union, or trust-busting arm of the federal government)? Everyone forgets that Google and Apple already colluded to suppress wages! https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2015/01/16/377614477/tech-giants-will-pay-415-million-to-settle-employees-lawsuit https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2015/01/16/37...

AnthonyMouse 5y ago
> Why should we trust a large monopoly like Google to have workers' best interests at heart when there's no counter-balancing force with the same power (be it a union, or trust-busting arm of the federal government)? The answer is that we shouldn't, but the latter solution is much better than the former.
djfy6fdyyf 5y ago
brightball 5y ago
There is another counter balancing force...numerous other opportunities. It's not a situation like Boeing where there's a very limited number of other places that you can take your skills.
- throwaway2048 5y ago
  The counterbalancing forces google actively colludes with you mean?
  - brightball 5y ago
    Is Google colluding with every employer and entrepreneur in the country?
    - throwaway2048 5y ago
      Do they need to be to poke a significant hole in your argument? They colluded with basically all of the largest high paying employers in the SV ecosystem. That is absolutely going to have a massive systematic effect on compensation.
      - brightball 5y ago
        Does a union fix that?

lucumo 5y ago

Not just to the company. They aren't always good for all the people they claim to represent. I'm not American, and live in a place where unions have pretty strong protection and usually have industry-wide negotiating power. They are also gerontocracies and will screw over young people to favour the old. I will no longer work for places where unions negotiate. I prefer the clear incentives of an employer over the unclear incentives of union negotiators. You never know when they're honestly standing side-by-side with you or when they're just there to pick your pockets.

kwhitefoot 5y ago
> They are also gerontocracies and will screw over young people to favour the old. This probably says as much about the wider society that you live in as it does about the unions.
- lucumo 5y ago
  My wider society is much more balanced in is treatment of the age groups. There's definitely issues, but when the unions get involved there's no balance anymore. This society is not a gerontocracy either. There's quite a few 30-somethings in the government.