4 ms·

I believe unions are actually necessary. Necessary evil at times or not, it's a human right to have a union. I've never been in a union, but my wife is. And I'

I believe unions are actually necessary. Necessary evil at times or not, it's a human right to have a union. I've never been in a union, but my wife is. And I've worked as management with unions in a factory setting. It was fine, actually. The company I worked for that was unionized was the best, most efficient corporation that I've ever seen. In fact it was a superior there that told me, when I was more anti-union, that "companies get the union they deserve". I did everything I could to get my wife into a professional career with a union, so that when I die she'll be as safe and protected without me. I never wanted anyone taking advantage of her in her career. The union may sometimes do stupid things, but overall to not have one is an absurd, and small-minded idea. All that said, unions should also be sector-wide not worksite based. And there probably shouldn't be any government unions- I wouldn't budge on anything though as things are today, without real and significant gains for unions in the private market. I do believe small business under a certain number of employees should be exempted from unions. Say <10 employees. I know France does this, or something similar to it. Big corps keep out competition too easily, and should be doing more to keep the American middle class around. Their contribution can be unionizing. I also think unions would help the world, while I'm certainly not overpaid myself, my Indian colleagues deserve the same pay I receive. I'd strike for that. They, and my employer, deserve it.

Shish2k 5y ago
> I do believe small business under a certain number of employees should be exempted from unions. Say <10 employees. The rule of thumb I go by is "If the company has an HR department protecting the company’s interests, then the workers should have a union protecting the workers’ interests."
spaetzleesser 5y ago
“All that said, unions should also be sector-wide not worksite based.” That’s how it works in Germany and it’s much better than the per company unions in the US. Workers also have a seat on the board of directors by law which also helps balancing things a little. The capitalists and CEOs still make plenty of money within that arrangement, companies are competitive on the world market so it seems to work.
- BuckRogers 5y ago
  Aye. My friends in Germany (well, Austria at least) tell me there are no shortage of jobs in Alemannia either. Stifling the economy hasn't happened. I definitely have looked to them for inspiration there. As well as Spain and Italy for their gov't funding of worker cooperatives. Which I think is probably an even better answer to a balanced system, but I'm afraid too many people don't have the mind or focus to make worker co-ops work well on the whole. Definitely a few ideas from Europe though that if they're all embraced, will make a significant difference.
  - MandieD 5y ago
    Corporate IT departments are still hiring like mad in northern Bavaria. It's nothing like SV or even quite as good as big US metro area IT money, but it's not bad - 30 days vacation is the norm (thank you, IG Metall!), on top of a ludicrous public holiday schedule (thank you, Catholic Church, I guess...) and frankly ridiculous sick leave policy (thank you, German government).
- MandieD 5y ago
  There's the "Works Council" (Betriebsrat) that in big companies is basically an employee-elected parliament, with various party-like factions running. For my employer's last Betriebsrat election, IG Metall (the union that represents my company's sector) ran a slate of candidates, along with other "parties" that emphasized somewhat different approaches - one campaigned on a platform of more flexible home office rules (pre-Covid). The Betriebsrat approves major HR policies, like how long open positions need to be advertised internally before they can be advertised outside the company, or approving non-shift Sunday or night work hours (kind of a pain, but also a protection against abuse), as well as employee data privacy matters, such as whether MS Teams presence status can be visible to people outside of the company. Their cooperation is also necessary to fire permanent employees for cause after their 6 month trial period is over. This is a mixed blessing - it means that there are some useless people who can drag things out for ages, but also means that a PIP is more than a bum-covering exercise for management. If you're having an issue, and don't feel like your boss is hearing you, you can go to a Betriebsrat member instead of HR (especially if it's an issue with HR), and there are enough of them that it's likely that you know one of them, or a colleague does.
1MachineElf 5y ago
I enjoyed your comment because it seemed balanced across multiple interesting perspectives: * What changed your mind when you were more anti-union. * How upper management perceived unions. * What joining a union means for your spouse. * Why you would support a union today. I've only worked in one place that had a union. I couldn't see the benefit. The union seemed to be contributing to collective laziness and complacency. Being motivated to go above and beyond always put me at odds with the union people who would snitch on me for working after hours. Maybe I wouldn't feel so motivated to improve things if more employees were contributing higher than the just bare minimum? This was a union for a US government agency. >And there probably shouldn't be any government unions Seems you understand that perspective as well.
AnthonyMouse 5y ago
> In fact it was a superior there that told me, when I was more anti-union, that "companies get the union they deserve". What does that say about the companies that don't have a union? > I did everything I could to get my wife into a professional career with a union, so that when I die she'll be as safe and protected without me. The safer option is to make sure she has a skillset which is in high demand. What's the union going to do if her company goes under? > I also think unions would help the world, while I'm certainly not overpaid myself, my Indian colleagues deserve the same pay I receive. I'd strike for that. Different places have different costs of living. That's the competitive advantage of people in poor countries. Have you considered that if the company had to pay them the same as they pay you, they might have hired entirely workers who are in the same timezone? Much to the chagrin of the people you thought you were helping. > Big corps keep out competition too easily, and should be doing more to keep the American middle class around. Big corps should be broken up. That's the solution there.
- BuckRogers 5y ago
  I won't respond to everything, but her skills other than her experience in the field, and her long list of licenses, would be her ability to write and speak two languages fluently. I didn't preclude her skills. I just wanted her to have a union, whether skilled labor or otherwise. Having both has her very well positioned. She doesn't need a union, but it certainly has boosted her pay, vacation policy, and treatment. She could easily put a grievance in at work. I cannot, my grievance is to quit. I don't honestly think my software development skills put me in a better position. Skills are good if you're a basic worker. Helps. But you aren't in some magic land of success, you're just a worker that gets a job easier than the rest. I have her well positioned. Everything I learned about reality, I passed onto her, before she got into a real career. Skills + union = a pretty nice life, one that everyone honestly deserves if they get out of bed to work in the morning. Most people seem to think workers should be "skilled", or abused in some way. I think it's the non-contributors that should be punished or treated harshly. Workers should get all the good things. I don't ask that they build up a skillset.

Shish2k 5y ago

> I do believe small business under a certain number of employees should be exempted from unions. Say <10 employees. The rule of thumb I go by is "If the company has an HR department protecting the company’s interests, then the workers should have a union protecting the workers’ interests."

spaetzleesser 5y ago

“All that said, unions should also be sector-wide not worksite based.” That’s how it works in Germany and it’s much better than the per company unions in the US. Workers also have a seat on the board of directors by law which also helps balancing things a little. The capitalists and CEOs still make plenty of money within that arrangement, companies are competitive on the world market so it seems to work.

BuckRogers 5y ago
Aye. My friends in Germany (well, Austria at least) tell me there are no shortage of jobs in Alemannia either. Stifling the economy hasn't happened. I definitely have looked to them for inspiration there. As well as Spain and Italy for their gov't funding of worker cooperatives. Which I think is probably an even better answer to a balanced system, but I'm afraid too many people don't have the mind or focus to make worker co-ops work well on the whole. Definitely a few ideas from Europe though that if they're all embraced, will make a significant difference.
- MandieD 5y ago
  Corporate IT departments are still hiring like mad in northern Bavaria. It's nothing like SV or even quite as good as big US metro area IT money, but it's not bad - 30 days vacation is the norm (thank you, IG Metall!), on top of a ludicrous public holiday schedule (thank you, Catholic Church, I guess...) and frankly ridiculous sick leave policy (thank you, German government).
MandieD 5y ago
There's the "Works Council" (Betriebsrat) that in big companies is basically an employee-elected parliament, with various party-like factions running. For my employer's last Betriebsrat election, IG Metall (the union that represents my company's sector) ran a slate of candidates, along with other "parties" that emphasized somewhat different approaches - one campaigned on a platform of more flexible home office rules (pre-Covid). The Betriebsrat approves major HR policies, like how long open positions need to be advertised internally before they can be advertised outside the company, or approving non-shift Sunday or night work hours (kind of a pain, but also a protection against abuse), as well as employee data privacy matters, such as whether MS Teams presence status can be visible to people outside of the company. Their cooperation is also necessary to fire permanent employees for cause after their 6 month trial period is over. This is a mixed blessing - it means that there are some useless people who can drag things out for ages, but also means that a PIP is more than a bum-covering exercise for management. If you're having an issue, and don't feel like your boss is hearing you, you can go to a Betriebsrat member instead of HR (especially if it's an issue with HR), and there are enough of them that it's likely that you know one of them, or a colleague does.

1MachineElf 5y ago

I enjoyed your comment because it seemed balanced across multiple interesting perspectives: * What changed your mind when you were more anti-union. * How upper management perceived unions. * What joining a union means for your spouse. * Why you would support a union today. I've only worked in one place that had a union. I couldn't see the benefit. The union seemed to be contributing to collective laziness and complacency. Being motivated to go above and beyond always put me at odds with the union people who would snitch on me for working after hours. Maybe I wouldn't feel so motivated to improve things if more employees were contributing higher than the just bare minimum? This was a union for a US government agency. >And there probably shouldn't be any government unions Seems you understand that perspective as well.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago

> In fact it was a superior there that told me, when I was more anti-union, that "companies get the union they deserve". What does that say about the companies that don't have a union? > I did everything I could to get my wife into a professional career with a union, so that when I die she'll be as safe and protected without me. The safer option is to make sure she has a skillset which is in high demand. What's the union going to do if her company goes under? > I also think unions would help the world, while I'm certainly not overpaid myself, my Indian colleagues deserve the same pay I receive. I'd strike for that. Different places have different costs of living. That's the competitive advantage of people in poor countries. Have you considered that if the company had to pay them the same as they pay you, they might have hired entirely workers who are in the same timezone? Much to the chagrin of the people you thought you were helping. > Big corps keep out competition too easily, and should be doing more to keep the American middle class around. Big corps should be broken up. That's the solution there.

BuckRogers 5y ago
I won't respond to everything, but her skills other than her experience in the field, and her long list of licenses, would be her ability to write and speak two languages fluently. I didn't preclude her skills. I just wanted her to have a union, whether skilled labor or otherwise. Having both has her very well positioned. She doesn't need a union, but it certainly has boosted her pay, vacation policy, and treatment. She could easily put a grievance in at work. I cannot, my grievance is to quit. I don't honestly think my software development skills put me in a better position. Skills are good if you're a basic worker. Helps. But you aren't in some magic land of success, you're just a worker that gets a job easier than the rest. I have her well positioned. Everything I learned about reality, I passed onto her, before she got into a real career. Skills + union = a pretty nice life, one that everyone honestly deserves if they get out of bed to work in the morning. Most people seem to think workers should be "skilled", or abused in some way. I think it's the non-contributors that should be punished or treated harshly. Workers should get all the good things. I don't ask that they build up a skillset.