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For a start, I can't myself confirm the existence of this 'NFT' and its record of changing hands or originator the way I can with all actual NFTs.

by Tenoke 5y ago

ceejayoz 5y ago
You can't do that with NFTs either. https://opensea.io/assets/0xbc4ca0eda7647a8ab7c2061c2e118a18a936f13d/7478?ref=0x33c7092deeA83DC161c5a7Df890370FE7a766B8B https://opensea.io/assets/0xbc4ca0eda7647a8ab7c2061c2e118a18... https://nftrade.com/assets/eth/0x176e0fe17314def59f0f06e976e1b74203be4a55/7478 https://nftrade.com/assets/eth/0x176e0fe17314def59f0f06e976e... Imagine you have zero off-chain knowledge. Which one of these is the real one?
- Tenoke 5y ago
  On-chain knowledge is the transaction https://etherscan.io/tx/0x798c7060f2e5e0cf2a4d143874be88f404058ee49712e598b743359e38b352e5 https://etherscan.io/tx/0x798c7060f2e5e0cf2a4d143874be88f404... and their official address 0xbc4ca0eda7647a8ab7c2061c2e118a18a936f13d which is sufficient for me to tell whether it was minted by them or not. The other one clearly is affiliated with some other address in its transaction.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    No, that's off-chain knowledge coming into play. You know Bored Ape Yacht Club and Phunky Ape Yacht Club exist. How do you know which one owns the copyright to the images? Which one's the original artist, and which one's the fraud?
    - Tenoke 5y ago
      I am not sure what you are arguing for but obviously there are off-chain parts, too. The point is that once Ape Yacht Club or whoever has publicized their address I can always confirm in the future whether an Ape NFT originated from them and how it was traded after that. Loosely similarly, if I want to communicate with someone securely they first have to communicate to me their public key but once I have it I can always verify that a message comes from them and send them messages back.
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        I'm arguing there's a massive missing link in the provenance chain. The person who put a JPEG on the blockchain may not own that JPEG. As evidenced by the existence of the Phunky Ape Yacht Club copies. A list of transactions after that point doesn't demonstrate ownership if you can't demonstrate ownership by the minter.
        nybble41 5y ago
        Ownership of (most) NFTs has absolutely nothing to do with ownership of the copyright, making this a red herring. It doesn't matter whether the minter of the NFT owns the JPEG. All that matters is whether someone is willing to pay to acquire the minter's digital autograph (i.e. the NFT). Of course if you are expecting a license or transfer of copyright to accompany the NFT then you'd better do your due diligence regarding whether the seller holds the necessary rights, but that applies equally well to old-fashioned signatures on paper contracts.

For a start, I can't myself confirm the existence of this 'NFT' and its record of changing hands or originator the way I can with all actual NFTs.

by Tenoke 5y ago

For a start, I can't myself confirm the existence of this 'NFT' and its record of changing hands or originator the way I can with all actual NFTs.

ceejayoz 5y ago

You can't do that with NFTs either. https://opensea.io/assets/0xbc4ca0eda7647a8ab7c2061c2e118a18a936f13d/7478?ref=0x33c7092deeA83DC161c5a7Df890370FE7a766B8B https://opensea.io/assets/0xbc4ca0eda7647a8ab7c2061c2e118a18... https://nftrade.com/assets/eth/0x176e0fe17314def59f0f06e976e1b74203be4a55/7478 https://nftrade.com/assets/eth/0x176e0fe17314def59f0f06e976e... Imagine you have zero off-chain knowledge. Which one of these is the real one?

Tenoke 5y ago
On-chain knowledge is the transaction https://etherscan.io/tx/0x798c7060f2e5e0cf2a4d143874be88f404058ee49712e598b743359e38b352e5 https://etherscan.io/tx/0x798c7060f2e5e0cf2a4d143874be88f404... and their official address 0xbc4ca0eda7647a8ab7c2061c2e118a18a936f13d which is sufficient for me to tell whether it was minted by them or not. The other one clearly is affiliated with some other address in its transaction.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  No, that's off-chain knowledge coming into play. You know Bored Ape Yacht Club and Phunky Ape Yacht Club exist. How do you know which one owns the copyright to the images? Which one's the original artist, and which one's the fraud?
  - Tenoke 5y ago
    I am not sure what you are arguing for but obviously there are off-chain parts, too. The point is that once Ape Yacht Club or whoever has publicized their address I can always confirm in the future whether an Ape NFT originated from them and how it was traded after that. Loosely similarly, if I want to communicate with someone securely they first have to communicate to me their public key but once I have it I can always verify that a message comes from them and send them messages back.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      I'm arguing there's a massive missing link in the provenance chain. The person who put a JPEG on the blockchain may not own that JPEG. As evidenced by the existence of the Phunky Ape Yacht Club copies. A list of transactions after that point doesn't demonstrate ownership if you can't demonstrate ownership by the minter.
      - nybble41 5y ago
        Ownership of (most) NFTs has absolutely nothing to do with ownership of the copyright, making this a red herring. It doesn't matter whether the minter of the NFT owns the JPEG. All that matters is whether someone is willing to pay to acquire the minter's digital autograph (i.e. the NFT). Of course if you are expecting a license or transfer of copyright to accompany the NFT then you'd better do your due diligence regarding whether the seller holds the necessary rights, but that applies equally well to old-fashioned signatures on paper contracts.