4 ms·

I'm a road biker and would love fully separated bikeways wherever possible. The scheme in Milano sounds exciting and full of the right spirit. That being said,

I'm a road biker and would love fully separated bikeways wherever possible. The scheme in Milano sounds exciting and full of the right spirit. That being said, painted lines, in reality, do positively affect safety, both perceived (at least by me) and in accident statistics. Rethinking our cities towards multi-modal transportation will take time. I believe maximalist positions ("only physically separated bike lanes are acceptable!" probably don't lead to better results, faster.

Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
I do have some sympathy with your latter point, but there comes a point where you have to say "if not now, when?". Oxford built one world-class segregated track in the 70s (Marston Ferry Road) and has basically regressed since then. I'd be a bit more forgiving if it were Piddleton-on-the-Marsh, but Oxford has "A Cycling City" signs at every entrance to the city...
kawsper 5y ago
Casey Neistats video about painted bike path obstructions in New York comes to mind: https://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQ https://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQ (2011)
chimprich 5y ago
> That being said, painted lines, in reality, do positively affect safety [...] in accident statistics Could you cite any studies to that effect? Some studies suggest painted cycle lanes are actively dangerous: https://findingspress.org/article/18226-cycling-injury-risk-in-london-impacts-of-road-characteristics-and-infrastructure https://findingspress.org/article/18226-cycling-injury-risk-... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0001457518309990?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00014...
mathieuh 5y ago
I have the opposite opinion of painted-line bike paths: I'd rather they not be there at all. If they are there I feel forced to use them by drivers punishment passing me, despite the fact that the so-called bike lanes are full of glass, potholes and cars. If they aren't there I feel like I get treated with more patience when I ride in my normal road position, about 75 cm from the kerb.
- tosser0001 5y ago
  I feel like I must be in a distinct minority because I personally prefer painted bike lanes over any other alternative. It's pretty rare in my own experience to have cars ignoring or being impatient with them (maybe because I like in a fairly bike-friendly city) I also don't like getting stuck behind really slow people in physically separate lanes where there's no room to pass.
  - mathieuh 5y ago
    We have 200 m total of segregated bike paths in my city so I don't have too much of an opinion on them. My complaint is the feeling of being forced to use them when they are the dirtiest and most dangerous part of the road. They are just dashed white lines that were designed by someone who drove down the street in a Transit van once. Since I've been moved to WFH I exclusively cycle on country roads, I feel like if we had more segregated bike paths in the city I wouldn't mind being stuck behind people, I feel like commuting or cycling into town is a different thing from cycling for exercise or as a sport. I live in a country where cycling as a mode of transport is basically non-existent, 95% of the people I see on bikes are on road bikes and wearing lycra, so it's possible I'd feel differently about segregated lanes if there more of a cycling-as-transport culture here.
  - giraffe_lady 5y ago
    My issue is that painted bike lanes are also de facto loading, waiting, and short term parking zones. The bike lane existing makes car drivers more hostile when I'm forced to enter "their" lane because of cars blocking mine. Yes sure this is an enforcement issue I guess. Why not just build a physical barrier that doesn't require enforcement though.
- alisonatwork 5y ago
  I both agree and don't agree, having recently cycled across the US and experienced areas with no cycle paths, painted cycle paths and separated cycle paths. Obviously separated paths are the safest, although unfortunately in the US they often aren't maintained as well as the road surface, so for long trips it's usually more comfortable to cycle on the road anyway. But when it comes to painted lines, the situation is a bit hazier. You're right that drivers tend to be ruder and more obnoxious when you - as a cyclist - leave the painted cycle path for some legitimate reason, like to avoid an obstacle or poor road surface... On the other hand, at least drivers who drive in places with painted cycle paths know how to share the road, even if they resent doing it. For example, I can't count the number of times in the US where I cycled straight ahead in the straight ahead lane after the shoulder abruptly turned into a "right turn only" lane, only to have ignorant drivers beep and hurl abuse at me for doing what I was supposed to be doing. In areas with painted cycle lanes, the drivers understand that in this situation they are supposed to watch for cyclists, give way and then cross into the "right turn only" lane on the cyclists' right, instead of fuming and raging because a cyclist dared to follow the signage. In places where drivers tend to be more educated about how to share the road, it might be the case that painted lines are more trouble than they're worth, but in the US I think it's still useful as a way to teach drivers how to handle having cyclists on the road.
zip1234 5y ago
In regards to painted lines--they mostly do not pass the 'would you let your kids ride on them?' test. Drivers treat them as additional car lanes or a place to drift off into while texting.
usrusr 5y ago
Painted lines can be both very good and very bad. It really depends on implementation. A painted strip right through the door-zone of parking is the well known example of bad painted lines. But painted lines next to a pair of narrow lanes are bad even without parking: here, without the bike lane a cyclist would effectively take most of the full lane, with overtaking cars easily doing a half-width zip merging on the outside lane. It's an easy flow with cars temporarily "compressed" onto "1.5 lanes". But when you compress the cars onto two permanently narrow lanes, with an explicit bike lane, drivers will reliably stop the zip merge and just plow through, often even much closer to the bike lane than to the other car lane. The worst examples are those where the original road was slightly too narrow to make 2x car and 1x bike and they painted a minimum width bike lane: on those, drivers keep doing double file and those on the right routinely enter the bike lane - and they still don't do the "partial zip" they'd do without the bike lane. Those things are not only worse than fully separated, they are worse than absence of bike infrastructure. But a not-bad lane implementation (either enough room for well-sized lanes for both cars and bikes or making the remaining car lane clearly too narrow for double file), yeah, I'd take it over fully separated any single time. Much better coordination with right turning traffic (occasionally, when speed happens to match, I even merge through the right turn lane so they don't have to give me right of way, clear win-win), much safer access to left turn lanes if you need it, much easier merging into traffic when the bike infrastructure is blocked (plenty of occasions, both sides of legality) and in general sooo much less interaction with stray dogs, children, cyclists who ride against traffic because in their mind they are a pedestrian with wheels instead of a very light vehicle, pedestrians who walk there because in their mind they are cyclists (yeah, that has happened to me, I admit) and so on. I love painted lanes! Just please avoid those horrible mistakes that you have to avoid while setting them up when you set them up.

Doctor_Fegg 5y ago

I do have some sympathy with your latter point, but there comes a point where you have to say "if not now, when?". Oxford built one world-class segregated track in the 70s (Marston Ferry Road) and has basically regressed since then. I'd be a bit more forgiving if it were Piddleton-on-the-Marsh, but Oxford has "A Cycling City" signs at every entrance to the city...

kawsper 5y ago

Casey Neistats video about painted bike path obstructions in New York comes to mind: https://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQ https://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQ (2011)

chimprich 5y ago

> That being said, painted lines, in reality, do positively affect safety [...] in accident statistics Could you cite any studies to that effect? Some studies suggest painted cycle lanes are actively dangerous: https://findingspress.org/article/18226-cycling-injury-risk-in-london-impacts-of-road-characteristics-and-infrastructure https://findingspress.org/article/18226-cycling-injury-risk-... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0001457518309990?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00014...

mathieuh 5y ago

I have the opposite opinion of painted-line bike paths: I'd rather they not be there at all. If they are there I feel forced to use them by drivers punishment passing me, despite the fact that the so-called bike lanes are full of glass, potholes and cars. If they aren't there I feel like I get treated with more patience when I ride in my normal road position, about 75 cm from the kerb.

tosser0001 5y ago
I feel like I must be in a distinct minority because I personally prefer painted bike lanes over any other alternative. It's pretty rare in my own experience to have cars ignoring or being impatient with them (maybe because I like in a fairly bike-friendly city) I also don't like getting stuck behind really slow people in physically separate lanes where there's no room to pass.
- mathieuh 5y ago
  We have 200 m total of segregated bike paths in my city so I don't have too much of an opinion on them. My complaint is the feeling of being forced to use them when they are the dirtiest and most dangerous part of the road. They are just dashed white lines that were designed by someone who drove down the street in a Transit van once. Since I've been moved to WFH I exclusively cycle on country roads, I feel like if we had more segregated bike paths in the city I wouldn't mind being stuck behind people, I feel like commuting or cycling into town is a different thing from cycling for exercise or as a sport. I live in a country where cycling as a mode of transport is basically non-existent, 95% of the people I see on bikes are on road bikes and wearing lycra, so it's possible I'd feel differently about segregated lanes if there more of a cycling-as-transport culture here.
- giraffe_lady 5y ago
  My issue is that painted bike lanes are also de facto loading, waiting, and short term parking zones. The bike lane existing makes car drivers more hostile when I'm forced to enter "their" lane because of cars blocking mine. Yes sure this is an enforcement issue I guess. Why not just build a physical barrier that doesn't require enforcement though.
alisonatwork 5y ago
I both agree and don't agree, having recently cycled across the US and experienced areas with no cycle paths, painted cycle paths and separated cycle paths. Obviously separated paths are the safest, although unfortunately in the US they often aren't maintained as well as the road surface, so for long trips it's usually more comfortable to cycle on the road anyway. But when it comes to painted lines, the situation is a bit hazier. You're right that drivers tend to be ruder and more obnoxious when you - as a cyclist - leave the painted cycle path for some legitimate reason, like to avoid an obstacle or poor road surface... On the other hand, at least drivers who drive in places with painted cycle paths know how to share the road, even if they resent doing it. For example, I can't count the number of times in the US where I cycled straight ahead in the straight ahead lane after the shoulder abruptly turned into a "right turn only" lane, only to have ignorant drivers beep and hurl abuse at me for doing what I was supposed to be doing. In areas with painted cycle lanes, the drivers understand that in this situation they are supposed to watch for cyclists, give way and then cross into the "right turn only" lane on the cyclists' right, instead of fuming and raging because a cyclist dared to follow the signage. In places where drivers tend to be more educated about how to share the road, it might be the case that painted lines are more trouble than they're worth, but in the US I think it's still useful as a way to teach drivers how to handle having cyclists on the road.

zip1234 5y ago

In regards to painted lines--they mostly do not pass the 'would you let your kids ride on them?' test. Drivers treat them as additional car lanes or a place to drift off into while texting.

usrusr 5y ago

Painted lines can be both very good and very bad. It really depends on implementation. A painted strip right through the door-zone of parking is the well known example of bad painted lines. But painted lines next to a pair of narrow lanes are bad even without parking: here, without the bike lane a cyclist would effectively take most of the full lane, with overtaking cars easily doing a half-width zip merging on the outside lane. It's an easy flow with cars temporarily "compressed" onto "1.5 lanes". But when you compress the cars onto two permanently narrow lanes, with an explicit bike lane, drivers will reliably stop the zip merge and just plow through, often even much closer to the bike lane than to the other car lane. The worst examples are those where the original road was slightly too narrow to make 2x car and 1x bike and they painted a minimum width bike lane: on those, drivers keep doing double file and those on the right routinely enter the bike lane - and they still don't do the "partial zip" they'd do without the bike lane. Those things are not only worse than fully separated, they are worse than absence of bike infrastructure. But a not-bad lane implementation (either enough room for well-sized lanes for both cars and bikes or making the remaining car lane clearly too narrow for double file), yeah, I'd take it over fully separated any single time. Much better coordination with right turning traffic (occasionally, when speed happens to match, I even merge through the right turn lane so they don't have to give me right of way, clear win-win), much safer access to left turn lanes if you need it, much easier merging into traffic when the bike infrastructure is blocked (plenty of occasions, both sides of legality) and in general sooo much less interaction with stray dogs, children, cyclists who ride against traffic because in their mind they are a pedestrian with wheels instead of a very light vehicle, pedestrians who walk there because in their mind they are cyclists (yeah, that has happened to me, I admit) and so on. I love painted lanes! Just please avoid those horrible mistakes that you have to avoid while setting them up when you set them up.