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Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This i

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxford-2021 https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf...: the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is really frustrating how highway engineers, as a profession, are unwilling to consistently learn lessons from the Netherlands in designing cycle infrastructure. Many cities seem to delight in half-assing their own solutions. So congratulations to Milan, who look like they may have got it right.

the_biot 5y ago
It's equally frustrating how a certain class of people, i.e. rabid anti-car cyclists, only read publications within their bubble that are equally anti-car, while constantly throwing shade at any country that is not the paradise Netherlands. I encourage you to take that next step: only commenting on these type of stories within your bubble.
- jimmytidey 5y ago
  I'm a cyclist but I try to get as many perspectives as possible. Can you recommend some alternative material for cyclists who want to see the other side?
- laputan_machine 5y ago
  When I commuted to work I cycled 16+ miles a day rain, snow or shine. I also own 2 cars, I love working on them. I've built a few bicycles and regularly maintain them for my friends and family. I think I have a pretty decent perspective on both sides. Cycling in the UK is 1% of road traffic, and are drowned out of the conversation on how roads are built up until very recently. They are the most vulnerable things on wheels. They are treated as second class citizens on the road, and are subject to abuse car drivers do not get. I'm not 'anti-car', I'm 'anti-getting-killed-while-cycling'. If a cyclist crashes into a car, the cyclist comes off worse. If a car crashes into a cyclist, the cyclist comes off worse. It's not even close. The relentless amount of hate cyclists receive in the UK is genuinely shocking to me, and any time any sort of positive action is attempted to be brought up (e.g. building new cycling infrastructure) the haters come out of the wood-work to act as if they're being oppressed. Do you cycle? My money is on 'no'.
  - the_biot 5y ago
    It's NOT about car drivers vs. cyclists. You've immediately classified me into somebody who couldn't possibly cycle, as clearly I am evil. I disagreed with an anti-car pro-bicycle article after all! This is why I think this sort of rabid us-vs-them crap should be kept to its own bubble: it has no place in a civilized discussion among even-tempered people.
    - laputan_machine 5y ago
      I've classified you as someone who doesn't cycle because of how you wrote your initial comment, 'i.e. rabid anti-car cyclists'. This language is the same language people who hold prejudiced views on cycling use. I don't think these people are 'evil', you are making wild assumptions. My reply told you that I own cars, I enjoy driving, I enjoy working on them. I find mechanics interesting, cars and bicycles both. I tried to explain that I do not sit in the 'us-vs-them' camp, I pay VED, yet I cycle a lot too. I think I can see both sides of the issue. I think my response was even-tempered. You complain about things being 'us-vs-them', yet you think adding cycling lanes is 'anti-car pro-bicyle'. I think you should look at whether or not you sit in a certain camp, to me, the language you use is telling.
- tohmeiphun 5y ago
  I agree with you. Having a car maximizes your opportunity, so by making it difficult and expensive to own a car and drive hurts the people who need the help the most.
  - jimmytidey 5y ago
    It really depends on the context. Driving is often the only feasible way to get around in sparsely populated areas, or areas with extreme weather. In densely populated temperate areas, cars are often no faster than other modes of transport (although they may be more comfortable), and they impose a very high cost on others, including: fatalities and injuries associated with traffic accidents, premature deaths and reduced quality of life due to air pollution and noise pollution. Parking and road lanes typically consume a great deal more space per passenger mile than buses, trains, trams, bike or walking. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by hurting 'people who need help the most', but in most urban situations owning a car for personal transport is not an option for those with the lowest income, and no realistic policy will make it affordable. Again, I'm happy to have my views challenged on this.
    - tohmeiphun 5y ago
      I live in Boston, in the 90's it was way easier to have a car. The bike lanes have cut our two lane main roads down to one which has created a lot of traffic, a lot more than in the past. And there's much less parking due to the bikes, but also the new developments. The Mayor of Boston in the 90's wouldn't let anyone build housing unless they provided a parking space for every bedroom. The new mayor just green lit a big development that will provide no parking spaces. Having a car is your independence, not having one make you dependent on the public transportation system. It's great if you can choose not to have a car, but I don't think it's fair to prevent other people from making that choice, or making it expensive or difficult. Also, it's much more difficult to manage a family without a car. A woman I worked with had to pick her kids every now and then. She wasn't making a lot of money and she had to pay for her own parking. It was a good job for her, so she tried to make the commute work, but it's difficult. It was difficult before, but the quality of life has gone down because people want their bicycle utopia. I've ridden a bike in Boston since the early nineties and I don't think it's any easier or any safer. I can't tell if the bike lanes are really for bicycles or for people who want to create a hassle for people who depend on their car for their family or job. Did this help at all?
csmattryder 5y ago
You want to move yourself oop north, Greater Manchester's "Bee Network" delivers fully segregated cycle lanes - they've just done a large tranche of work to the roads south of Stockport to resize the road to make the walkways wider. That said, haven't seen them actually used yet. Pass a lot more cyclists that choose the road, still. https://activetravel.tfgm.com/bee-network-vision/ https://activetravel.tfgm.com/bee-network-vision/
- aembleton 5y ago
  If the bee network gets fully built then it could be great, but even then it relies upon a lot of paint on the road rather than segregated cycleways. There are some, such as Stockport and Oxford Road but there needs to be far more.
kombine 5y ago
So what would you propose as a solution specifically for Oxford? Many streets such as Abingdon Rd are already narrow enough and I can't see how one could segregate a dedicated lane for cyclists there.
- the-dude 5y ago
  NL does not segregate in historical inner cities either.
- Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
  Abingdon Road is the difficult one because it genuinely isn't wide enough for segregated tracks. But it's also the easy one because there's a parallel, direct backstreet route (Marlborough Road/Wytham Street), and Abingdon Road itself has few enough businesses that it's not really a destination in itself. The Quickways proposals are focused on East Oxford where there is enough space. Broadly speaking, all of the East Oxford arterials have enough space for a segregated track on at least one side, usually both. It's only the immediate vicinity of the Plain where they're very narrow. But you could get two protected tracks along the Cowley Road as far as Marsh Road, assuming you reworked the road furniture and parking spaces; one protected track along the Iffley Road from the Plain to somewhere round Magdalen Road, and two from there on; two along most of Headington/London Road, Marston Road, and so on.
- xenocratus 5y ago
  And that's why the national cycling network actively avoids Abingdon Rd: https://explore.osmaps.com/en/route/3647727/Sustrans-Hanson-Way https://explore.osmaps.com/en/route/3647727/Sustrans-Hanson-...
- orangepurple 5y ago
  Remove all paint and signage to make car drivers slow down from fear. Require cyclists to have extremely bright flashing rear lights. If all else fails increase the number of tiny roundabouts and speed bumps.
gsliepen 5y ago
In the Netherlands there are also roads with just a painted bike lane. The difference is that the whole bike lane is painted in a solid color (usually reddish). This gives a constant visual feedback to drivers. Because of the paint it is just ever so slightly raised and has a different texture than the regular asphalt, so there can be a noticable difference in sound when car tires go onto the bike lane. See for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_the_Netherlands#/media/File:Fietsstrook_Herenweg_Oudorp.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_the_Netherlands#/me...
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  The main difference is that the decision of painting the road or segregating traffic in the Netherlands is based on traffic volume and traffic speed. High speed high traffic zones get segregate bicycle traffic. Low speed low traffic routes can cope with mixed traffic and just a side lane for bicycles. The decision of just painting over curbs for cost is the main infrastructure mistake and 'false saving' in a lot of European cities outside NL.
  - ben-schaaf 5y ago
    > The main difference is that the decision of painting the road or segregating traffic in the Netherlands is based on traffic volume and traffic speed. High speed high traffic zones get segregate bicycle traffic. Low speed low traffic routes can cope with mixed traffic and just a side lane for bicycles. The current standard technically doesn't allow for bicycle gutters: Traffic should be either fully mixed on low speed, low volume streets or fully separated. Though bicycle gutters do still get made (space being the primary excuse), from what I've seen it's primarily old roads that have yet to be renewed since the standards changed. https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2020/08/12/cycle-lanes-in-the-netherlands/ https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2020/08/12/cycle-lanes-in...
- masklinn 5y ago
  Cycle lanes are the subject of active and intense debate in the netherlands, and while they remain grandfathered (not sure they’re allowed for new roads) they are not the part of the recommendations. Furthermore, the legal management of cycle lanes is a lot harsher in the netherlands: drivers are not allowed to drive, park, or stop in cycle lanes. Cycle lanes with solid lines can not be encroached on at all, while cycle lanes with dashed lines may be crossed or used to pass an obstacles.
forgetfulness 5y ago
NYC has, at least in Brooklyn, a quite extensive bike lanes network. It's of very inconsistent quality, besides workarounds that are tolerable given circumstance, like that the path cuts off at one point and resumes on the other lane in the street, the abundance of bike lanes that lack any separation at all from the main street makes it so morons use it as a place to stop their cars or trucks, and then you have to make dangerous maneuvers to get around them, or stop and hope some car gives you right of way when the street is busy.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  Cars and trucks? That's nothing. Go along Vernon Blvd in Queens and you might be interrupted by large commercial dumpster-trailers being staged in your lane. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHZG-kPX0AQs4wf?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHZG-kPX0AQs4wf?format=jpg&name=...
- lelandfe 5y ago
  Neistat's Bike Lanes is a perennial classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ
lobochrome 5y ago
I'm a road biker and would love fully separated bikeways wherever possible. The scheme in Milano sounds exciting and full of the right spirit. That being said, painted lines, in reality, do positively affect safety, both perceived (at least by me) and in accident statistics. Rethinking our cities towards multi-modal transportation will take time. I believe maximalist positions ("only physically separated bike lanes are acceptable!" probably don't lead to better results, faster.
- Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
  I do have some sympathy with your latter point, but there comes a point where you have to say "if not now, when?". Oxford built one world-class segregated track in the 70s (Marston Ferry Road) and has basically regressed since then. I'd be a bit more forgiving if it were Piddleton-on-the-Marsh, but Oxford has "A Cycling City" signs at every entrance to the city...
- kawsper 5y ago
  Casey Neistats video about painted bike path obstructions in New York comes to mind: https://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQ https://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQ (2011)
- chimprich 5y ago
  > That being said, painted lines, in reality, do positively affect safety [...] in accident statistics Could you cite any studies to that effect? Some studies suggest painted cycle lanes are actively dangerous: https://findingspress.org/article/18226-cycling-injury-risk-in-london-impacts-of-road-characteristics-and-infrastructure https://findingspress.org/article/18226-cycling-injury-risk-... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0001457518309990?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00014...
- mathieuh 5y ago
  I have the opposite opinion of painted-line bike paths: I'd rather they not be there at all. If they are there I feel forced to use them by drivers punishment passing me, despite the fact that the so-called bike lanes are full of glass, potholes and cars. If they aren't there I feel like I get treated with more patience when I ride in my normal road position, about 75 cm from the kerb.
Schroedingers2c 5y ago
Ah, the ol' Oxford cycle "lanes". Where (if they exist) the paths themselves are bumpier than the Netherlands, and every few dozen meters you are greeted by a water drain or a manhole. In addition you have quite busy rush hours in the mornings and evenings. I moved from Oxford to the Netherlands a couple years ago and let me tell you: cycling here is a bliss.
- eatonphil 5y ago
  Is "a bliss" a typo or is that a (UK) English way of speech? I'm American and I've never seen someone say something is a bliss just that something is bliss (no indefinite article).
  - jounker 5y ago
    I’m an American, and i’ve heard both “is a bliss” and “is bliss” my whole life.
  - Schroedingers2c 5y ago
    Frankly, I have no idea. I'm not a native English speaker myself, just picked that phrase up.
  - chaircher 5y ago
    may be regional dialect
altacc 5y ago
I would be surprised if part of Milan's plan wasn't just to paint some bits of roads a different colour and call it a cycle path. These large initiatives tend to be a mix of solutions, from paint to dedicated cycle paths. This has happened pretty much anywhere a city has announced upgraded cycling infrastructure. Some cities ratio it better than others.
- n-i-m-a 5y ago
  As they did last year... There was quite some adapting for the drivers then and still confusing for drivers not familiar with these streets. Newly painted lanes with width that would vary every 50-100 meters (or less), random taxi/bus stops and parking being interchanged with the bike lane... Not easy for the riders nor the drivers...
lbriner 5y ago
I think it's tricky really. The only way it can work well is if a council starts closing certain roads to motor traffic or to through-traffic but this does cause a knock-on effect that is not easily fixed. There are lots of people who can't realistically use public transport (at least not until it is better etc.) and so if they are completely screwed by traffic decisions then that isn't really fair. However, what they are currently trying to do by keeping the level of motor traffic and simply slotting in lanes for cycles where there is space clearly doesn't work. I think a few places like Bristol have been a bit more forceful but they are large enough to have alternate routes for motor traffic.
- dahart 5y ago
  > if they are completely screwed by traffic decisions than that isn’t really fair. What does “completely screwed” mean? And is anyone really proposing something that will “completely screw” drivers, or is that more fear speaking than reality? The existing system of prioritizing cars was never built on fairness for all, and hasn’t been fair to cyclists and pedestrians, nor even really to people who can’t realistically use private transport. It has to be okay for the most privileged among us to experience some changes in their road usage, if we’re to improve the situation for all.
- 7952 5y ago
  But in the long term people need to take responsibility for their own choices. If you live in the middle of a medieval city and expect to travel 50 miles to a random market town at rush hour you are going to have a bad time. That was never a reasonable choice and puts an unfair burden on everyone else. Oxford can be made suitable for bike and pedestrians. It can never be made suitable for significant vehicle traffic.
- globular-toast 5y ago
  > There are lots of people who can't realistically use public transport What kind of people can't use public transport but can drive a private car?
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
In Holland they learned the hard way that you have to physically cordon off half of every road for bicycles. But you have to remember that just putting some paint on the pavement is a lot cheaper so that's what the government tries first. The reason why roads were taken back by Dutch cyclists and pedestrians is that they never stopped doing it. At some dark moment in the 1970s the number of children run over by cars was too much for society to ignore. It was a battle won by blood.
- s0rce 5y ago
  Americans seem really good at ignoring cyclists being run over. Children don't seem to walk/cycle and rely on being driven around by their parents here so they don't die as much (good, obviously people know its not safe) but doesn't promote infrastructure investment for alternative transit (bad).
  - bobbylarrybobby 5y ago
    Reminds me of this. https://twitter.com/darren_cullen/status/1422550369985605637 https://twitter.com/darren_cullen/status/1422550369985605637
    - uncletammy 5y ago
      This is one of my favorite artists! It's so great to see him referenced here!
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    And there's plenty of space in the US; most roads can be half as wide and still service most cars. Plenty of space to build in a hard shoulder / fencing and a dedicated two-way bike lane. But that's only part of the problem, the amount of entitled, and selfish drivers that ignore traffic rules, lights and sometimes even roads is crazy.
    - dimitrios1 5y ago
      In suburbia America, where bike lanes are abound and plenty of cyclists to boot, it is the cyclists that are entitled, selfish, arrogant, and ignore the traffic rules. They've recently resorted to riding 4-5 cyclists wide to take up the entire roadway. They ignore stop signs and traffic lights, trying to pass as a pedestrian whenever it is convenient, and have been responsible for many pedestrian related injuries. For the record, I am a cyclist. I would love to use it more. But the roads are too dangerous, and town hall meetings are always full of the same two sides talking past each other. It's a perception issue, but hardcore cyclists refuse to acknowledge it. So the situation continues to not improve.
Grustaf 5y ago
A lot of bike paths here in Copenhagen are simply painted and it works fine, even for small kids.
- zip1234 5y ago
  Is there actual enforcement of people stopping their car or parking in those lanes? Doesn't happen for the most part in the US.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    You’re definitely not allowed to drive or park in a bike lane, nobody would do that. On some on way side streets they have this weird system where the bike lane and takes up half the road and shares it with parked cars
- Symbiote 5y ago
  A painted bike line in Copenhagen is huge compared to the lanes they paint in Britain. The British version is about half as wide, and often allows parking for large parts of the day (i.e. is only a lane for a couple of hours). I've never been to Oxford, but someone mentioned Abingdon Road [1]. Just some bike symbols painted on the road. Or a little further up [2] -- that thing on the left is a British cycle lane. If you go forward 3 clicks, you can see it ends almost immediately. You obviously wouldn't take small kids through crap like this: [3]. Unbelievably, this is "National Cycle Route 57" (the StreetView car is pointed the wrong way to see it, but if you search you can find the tiny blue "57" sign at the roundabout.) Other than the bridges, the only part of Central Copenhagen with painted lanes I can think of is Bernstorffsgade [4]. I'm not really sure where you're thinking of for "lots" of bike paths. A little further out [5] is this, where at least the lanes go behind the parked cars, and are wider. https://osm.org/go/0NWvDIpQ-?layers=C https://osm.org/go/0NWvDIpQ-?layers=C shows solid lines for painted lanes, and there aren't many. [1] https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7378951,-1.2521828,3a,70.1y,156.57h,81.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUYPXUALLnx9ptPf7oUg0ng!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DUYPXUALLnx9ptPf7oUg0ng%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D85.06374%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7378951,-1.2521828,3a,70.1y,... [2] https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7471822,-1.2563676,3a,75y,183.8h,86.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKXnY9it6GtahH9yxa-KxZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7471822,-1.2563676,3a,75y,18... [3] https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7504861,-1.2448391,3a,75y,120.29h,81.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spknIUUmQQ56Rf6TZJVoalA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7504861,-1.2448391,3a,75y,12... [4] https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6698747,12.5700607,3a,75y,314.49h,81.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1dJfZwqTJPI0HJ4Gl-puFA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6698747,12.5700607,3a,75y,31... [5] https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6598222,12.6187002,3a,75y,162.05h,83.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOaAIA3pJ0xfUvjQzr4UOfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6598222,12.6187002,3a,75y,16...
pmontra 5y ago
This is perhaps the most trafficked new bike path in Milan, going to the city center from North https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtBeEBgodCw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtBeEBgodCw It was built in Spring/Summer 2020. You may start from 1:00 if you're in hurry, you'll get the idea. They moved the parking area towards the center to make way for a protected bike path. The road is narrower for cars but it was stop and go anyway (mostly stop). Further North, on the way out from the city, they didn't move the parking area. They painted a line between the cars and the parking area.
maxwell86 5y ago
> It is really frustrating how highway engineers, as a profession, are unwilling to consistently learn lessons from the Netherlands in designing cycle infrastructure. These decisions aren't made by highway engineers, they are made by politicians. The highway engineer puts a proper bikelane, makes the highway wider, and tells the politician that its going to cost 100 million dollars to do a couple of kms. The politician says that there is no money for that, at most 10 million, and that they "promised it", and suggests whether one can't paint a line or something for cheap instead. Otherwise, the engineer is fired. So the cousin of the politician ends up being paid 10 million $ for painting a shitty 1000$ line that serves no purpose. There is a systemic difference between the UK and the Netherlands. Suggesting that the UK doesn't have good bike lanes cause Netherlands has better highway engineers is as accurate as suggesting that the UK did Brexit cause their highway engineers are bad.
- Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
  I wish that were true but, having sat in lots of meetings with them (including an hour with the leader of the County Council last month), that's not my experience. The highway engineers were generally trained in the 80s or thereabouts to value vehicle throughput and continuous speed as their principal outputs. So they continue to build junctions with massive corner radiuses, shared-use pedestrian/cycle paths to maximise the space available for cars, priority for turning cars at side-road crossings, and so on. Here in Oxfordshire you could describe the situation as "officer capture" - the officers continue to design dreck, and the elected politicians aren't (yet) strong enough to reject it.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > These decisions aren't made by highway engineers, they are made by politicians. They are made by the public. We need to persaude other citizens, not rely on (and blame) some higher power.
- trgn 5y ago
  > The highway engineer puts a proper bikelane, makes the highway wider, and tells the politician that its going to cost 100 million dollars to do a couple of kms. Yikes! That's criminal. You can get an excellent bikelane with a few bollards and a paint can. I would say that's a failure of the engineering profession.
johnnyApplePRNG 5y ago
Agreed. I have seen too many cyclists hit and bloodied up by automobiles that I would never think twice about cycling on the road in my area, either. It's just not safe.
globular-toast 5y ago
I've pretty much given up on cycling in the UK. I drive now. It's just not safe or fun any more. The problem is car dominance. 20mph speed limits are flagrantly ignored everywhere, even right next to schools etc. Most drivers have zero experience on the road except for in a car. Cars are getting bigger and bigger and more and more powerful. Streets are lined with cars. Pavements are filled with cars. It's cars everywhere. We've a long way to go before even stopping the tide, let alone turning it around. Even when Netherlands style infrastructure is introduced in the UK it's a laughable failure. It ends up making things worse. See the Dutch style roundabout in Cambridge, for example. It turns out you can't change people's behaviour by painting a few lines on the road.
throw0101a 5y ago
> Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads.. Jason of the Not Just Bikes YT channel calls these bicycle gutters: * https://twitter.com/notjustbikes/status/1431260478303518724 https://twitter.com/notjustbikes/status/1431260478303518724
Tiktaalik 5y ago
> Many cities seem to delight in half-assing their own solutions. You can expand this out to so many other areas, like building code too. It's enormously frustrating that everyone thinks they're a unique snowflake, they cannot learn from other jurisdictions and they must re-invent the wheel. There are so many issues that so many cities are facing that are solved problems in other places.
iso1210 5y ago
Forget the paint, just remove the cars from the roads. Suddenly they become really safe, for everyone.

the_biot 5y ago

It's equally frustrating how a certain class of people, i.e. rabid anti-car cyclists, only read publications within their bubble that are equally anti-car, while constantly throwing shade at any country that is not the paradise Netherlands. I encourage you to take that next step: only commenting on these type of stories within your bubble.

jimmytidey 5y ago
I'm a cyclist but I try to get as many perspectives as possible. Can you recommend some alternative material for cyclists who want to see the other side?
laputan_machine 5y ago
When I commuted to work I cycled 16+ miles a day rain, snow or shine. I also own 2 cars, I love working on them. I've built a few bicycles and regularly maintain them for my friends and family. I think I have a pretty decent perspective on both sides. Cycling in the UK is 1% of road traffic, and are drowned out of the conversation on how roads are built up until very recently. They are the most vulnerable things on wheels. They are treated as second class citizens on the road, and are subject to abuse car drivers do not get. I'm not 'anti-car', I'm 'anti-getting-killed-while-cycling'. If a cyclist crashes into a car, the cyclist comes off worse. If a car crashes into a cyclist, the cyclist comes off worse. It's not even close. The relentless amount of hate cyclists receive in the UK is genuinely shocking to me, and any time any sort of positive action is attempted to be brought up (e.g. building new cycling infrastructure) the haters come out of the wood-work to act as if they're being oppressed. Do you cycle? My money is on 'no'.
- the_biot 5y ago
  It's NOT about car drivers vs. cyclists. You've immediately classified me into somebody who couldn't possibly cycle, as clearly I am evil. I disagreed with an anti-car pro-bicycle article after all! This is why I think this sort of rabid us-vs-them crap should be kept to its own bubble: it has no place in a civilized discussion among even-tempered people.
  - laputan_machine 5y ago
    I've classified you as someone who doesn't cycle because of how you wrote your initial comment, 'i.e. rabid anti-car cyclists'. This language is the same language people who hold prejudiced views on cycling use. I don't think these people are 'evil', you are making wild assumptions. My reply told you that I own cars, I enjoy driving, I enjoy working on them. I find mechanics interesting, cars and bicycles both. I tried to explain that I do not sit in the 'us-vs-them' camp, I pay VED, yet I cycle a lot too. I think I can see both sides of the issue. I think my response was even-tempered. You complain about things being 'us-vs-them', yet you think adding cycling lanes is 'anti-car pro-bicyle'. I think you should look at whether or not you sit in a certain camp, to me, the language you use is telling.
tohmeiphun 5y ago
I agree with you. Having a car maximizes your opportunity, so by making it difficult and expensive to own a car and drive hurts the people who need the help the most.
- jimmytidey 5y ago
  It really depends on the context. Driving is often the only feasible way to get around in sparsely populated areas, or areas with extreme weather. In densely populated temperate areas, cars are often no faster than other modes of transport (although they may be more comfortable), and they impose a very high cost on others, including: fatalities and injuries associated with traffic accidents, premature deaths and reduced quality of life due to air pollution and noise pollution. Parking and road lanes typically consume a great deal more space per passenger mile than buses, trains, trams, bike or walking. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by hurting 'people who need help the most', but in most urban situations owning a car for personal transport is not an option for those with the lowest income, and no realistic policy will make it affordable. Again, I'm happy to have my views challenged on this.
  - tohmeiphun 5y ago
    I live in Boston, in the 90's it was way easier to have a car. The bike lanes have cut our two lane main roads down to one which has created a lot of traffic, a lot more than in the past. And there's much less parking due to the bikes, but also the new developments. The Mayor of Boston in the 90's wouldn't let anyone build housing unless they provided a parking space for every bedroom. The new mayor just green lit a big development that will provide no parking spaces. Having a car is your independence, not having one make you dependent on the public transportation system. It's great if you can choose not to have a car, but I don't think it's fair to prevent other people from making that choice, or making it expensive or difficult. Also, it's much more difficult to manage a family without a car. A woman I worked with had to pick her kids every now and then. She wasn't making a lot of money and she had to pay for her own parking. It was a good job for her, so she tried to make the commute work, but it's difficult. It was difficult before, but the quality of life has gone down because people want their bicycle utopia. I've ridden a bike in Boston since the early nineties and I don't think it's any easier or any safer. I can't tell if the bike lanes are really for bicycles or for people who want to create a hassle for people who depend on their car for their family or job. Did this help at all?

csmattryder 5y ago

You want to move yourself oop north, Greater Manchester's "Bee Network" delivers fully segregated cycle lanes - they've just done a large tranche of work to the roads south of Stockport to resize the road to make the walkways wider. That said, haven't seen them actually used yet. Pass a lot more cyclists that choose the road, still. https://activetravel.tfgm.com/bee-network-vision/ https://activetravel.tfgm.com/bee-network-vision/

aembleton 5y ago
If the bee network gets fully built then it could be great, but even then it relies upon a lot of paint on the road rather than segregated cycleways. There are some, such as Stockport and Oxford Road but there needs to be far more.

kombine 5y ago

So what would you propose as a solution specifically for Oxford? Many streets such as Abingdon Rd are already narrow enough and I can't see how one could segregate a dedicated lane for cyclists there.

the-dude 5y ago
NL does not segregate in historical inner cities either.
Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
Abingdon Road is the difficult one because it genuinely isn't wide enough for segregated tracks. But it's also the easy one because there's a parallel, direct backstreet route (Marlborough Road/Wytham Street), and Abingdon Road itself has few enough businesses that it's not really a destination in itself. The Quickways proposals are focused on East Oxford where there is enough space. Broadly speaking, all of the East Oxford arterials have enough space for a segregated track on at least one side, usually both. It's only the immediate vicinity of the Plain where they're very narrow. But you could get two protected tracks along the Cowley Road as far as Marsh Road, assuming you reworked the road furniture and parking spaces; one protected track along the Iffley Road from the Plain to somewhere round Magdalen Road, and two from there on; two along most of Headington/London Road, Marston Road, and so on.
xenocratus 5y ago
And that's why the national cycling network actively avoids Abingdon Rd: https://explore.osmaps.com/en/route/3647727/Sustrans-Hanson-Way https://explore.osmaps.com/en/route/3647727/Sustrans-Hanson-...
orangepurple 5y ago
Remove all paint and signage to make car drivers slow down from fear. Require cyclists to have extremely bright flashing rear lights. If all else fails increase the number of tiny roundabouts and speed bumps.

gsliepen 5y ago

In the Netherlands there are also roads with just a painted bike lane. The difference is that the whole bike lane is painted in a solid color (usually reddish). This gives a constant visual feedback to drivers. Because of the paint it is just ever so slightly raised and has a different texture than the regular asphalt, so there can be a noticable difference in sound when car tires go onto the bike lane. See for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_the_Netherlands#/media/File:Fietsstrook_Herenweg_Oudorp.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_the_Netherlands#/me...

DoingIsLearning 5y ago
The main difference is that the decision of painting the road or segregating traffic in the Netherlands is based on traffic volume and traffic speed. High speed high traffic zones get segregate bicycle traffic. Low speed low traffic routes can cope with mixed traffic and just a side lane for bicycles. The decision of just painting over curbs for cost is the main infrastructure mistake and 'false saving' in a lot of European cities outside NL.
- ben-schaaf 5y ago
  > The main difference is that the decision of painting the road or segregating traffic in the Netherlands is based on traffic volume and traffic speed. High speed high traffic zones get segregate bicycle traffic. Low speed low traffic routes can cope with mixed traffic and just a side lane for bicycles. The current standard technically doesn't allow for bicycle gutters: Traffic should be either fully mixed on low speed, low volume streets or fully separated. Though bicycle gutters do still get made (space being the primary excuse), from what I've seen it's primarily old roads that have yet to be renewed since the standards changed. https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2020/08/12/cycle-lanes-in-the-netherlands/ https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2020/08/12/cycle-lanes-in...
masklinn 5y ago
Cycle lanes are the subject of active and intense debate in the netherlands, and while they remain grandfathered (not sure they’re allowed for new roads) they are not the part of the recommendations. Furthermore, the legal management of cycle lanes is a lot harsher in the netherlands: drivers are not allowed to drive, park, or stop in cycle lanes. Cycle lanes with solid lines can not be encroached on at all, while cycle lanes with dashed lines may be crossed or used to pass an obstacles.

forgetfulness 5y ago

NYC has, at least in Brooklyn, a quite extensive bike lanes network. It's of very inconsistent quality, besides workarounds that are tolerable given circumstance, like that the path cuts off at one point and resumes on the other lane in the street, the abundance of bike lanes that lack any separation at all from the main street makes it so morons use it as a place to stop their cars or trucks, and then you have to make dangerous maneuvers to get around them, or stop and hope some car gives you right of way when the street is busy.

fennecfoxen 5y ago
Cars and trucks? That's nothing. Go along Vernon Blvd in Queens and you might be interrupted by large commercial dumpster-trailers being staged in your lane. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHZG-kPX0AQs4wf?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHZG-kPX0AQs4wf?format=jpg&name=...
lelandfe 5y ago
Neistat's Bike Lanes is a perennial classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ

lobochrome 5y ago

I'm a road biker and would love fully separated bikeways wherever possible. The scheme in Milano sounds exciting and full of the right spirit. That being said, painted lines, in reality, do positively affect safety, both perceived (at least by me) and in accident statistics. Rethinking our cities towards multi-modal transportation will take time. I believe maximalist positions ("only physically separated bike lanes are acceptable!" probably don't lead to better results, faster.

Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
I do have some sympathy with your latter point, but there comes a point where you have to say "if not now, when?". Oxford built one world-class segregated track in the 70s (Marston Ferry Road) and has basically regressed since then. I'd be a bit more forgiving if it were Piddleton-on-the-Marsh, but Oxford has "A Cycling City" signs at every entrance to the city...
kawsper 5y ago
Casey Neistats video about painted bike path obstructions in New York comes to mind: https://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQ https://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQ (2011)
chimprich 5y ago
> That being said, painted lines, in reality, do positively affect safety [...] in accident statistics Could you cite any studies to that effect? Some studies suggest painted cycle lanes are actively dangerous: https://findingspress.org/article/18226-cycling-injury-risk-in-london-impacts-of-road-characteristics-and-infrastructure https://findingspress.org/article/18226-cycling-injury-risk-... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0001457518309990?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00014...
mathieuh 5y ago
I have the opposite opinion of painted-line bike paths: I'd rather they not be there at all. If they are there I feel forced to use them by drivers punishment passing me, despite the fact that the so-called bike lanes are full of glass, potholes and cars. If they aren't there I feel like I get treated with more patience when I ride in my normal road position, about 75 cm from the kerb.

Schroedingers2c 5y ago

Ah, the ol' Oxford cycle "lanes". Where (if they exist) the paths themselves are bumpier than the Netherlands, and every few dozen meters you are greeted by a water drain or a manhole. In addition you have quite busy rush hours in the mornings and evenings. I moved from Oxford to the Netherlands a couple years ago and let me tell you: cycling here is a bliss.

eatonphil 5y ago
Is "a bliss" a typo or is that a (UK) English way of speech? I'm American and I've never seen someone say something is a bliss just that something is bliss (no indefinite article).
- jounker 5y ago
  I’m an American, and i’ve heard both “is a bliss” and “is bliss” my whole life.
- Schroedingers2c 5y ago
  Frankly, I have no idea. I'm not a native English speaker myself, just picked that phrase up.
- chaircher 5y ago
  may be regional dialect

altacc 5y ago

I would be surprised if part of Milan's plan wasn't just to paint some bits of roads a different colour and call it a cycle path. These large initiatives tend to be a mix of solutions, from paint to dedicated cycle paths. This has happened pretty much anywhere a city has announced upgraded cycling infrastructure. Some cities ratio it better than others.

n-i-m-a 5y ago
As they did last year... There was quite some adapting for the drivers then and still confusing for drivers not familiar with these streets. Newly painted lanes with width that would vary every 50-100 meters (or less), random taxi/bus stops and parking being interchanged with the bike lane... Not easy for the riders nor the drivers...

lbriner 5y ago

I think it's tricky really. The only way it can work well is if a council starts closing certain roads to motor traffic or to through-traffic but this does cause a knock-on effect that is not easily fixed. There are lots of people who can't realistically use public transport (at least not until it is better etc.) and so if they are completely screwed by traffic decisions then that isn't really fair. However, what they are currently trying to do by keeping the level of motor traffic and simply slotting in lanes for cycles where there is space clearly doesn't work. I think a few places like Bristol have been a bit more forceful but they are large enough to have alternate routes for motor traffic.

dahart 5y ago
> if they are completely screwed by traffic decisions than that isn’t really fair. What does “completely screwed” mean? And is anyone really proposing something that will “completely screw” drivers, or is that more fear speaking than reality? The existing system of prioritizing cars was never built on fairness for all, and hasn’t been fair to cyclists and pedestrians, nor even really to people who can’t realistically use private transport. It has to be okay for the most privileged among us to experience some changes in their road usage, if we’re to improve the situation for all.
7952 5y ago
But in the long term people need to take responsibility for their own choices. If you live in the middle of a medieval city and expect to travel 50 miles to a random market town at rush hour you are going to have a bad time. That was never a reasonable choice and puts an unfair burden on everyone else. Oxford can be made suitable for bike and pedestrians. It can never be made suitable for significant vehicle traffic.
globular-toast 5y ago
> There are lots of people who can't realistically use public transport What kind of people can't use public transport but can drive a private car?

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

In Holland they learned the hard way that you have to physically cordon off half of every road for bicycles. But you have to remember that just putting some paint on the pavement is a lot cheaper so that's what the government tries first. The reason why roads were taken back by Dutch cyclists and pedestrians is that they never stopped doing it. At some dark moment in the 1970s the number of children run over by cars was too much for society to ignore. It was a battle won by blood.

s0rce 5y ago
Americans seem really good at ignoring cyclists being run over. Children don't seem to walk/cycle and rely on being driven around by their parents here so they don't die as much (good, obviously people know its not safe) but doesn't promote infrastructure investment for alternative transit (bad).
- bobbylarrybobby 5y ago
  Reminds me of this. https://twitter.com/darren_cullen/status/1422550369985605637 https://twitter.com/darren_cullen/status/1422550369985605637
  - uncletammy 5y ago
    This is one of my favorite artists! It's so great to see him referenced here!
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  And there's plenty of space in the US; most roads can be half as wide and still service most cars. Plenty of space to build in a hard shoulder / fencing and a dedicated two-way bike lane. But that's only part of the problem, the amount of entitled, and selfish drivers that ignore traffic rules, lights and sometimes even roads is crazy.
  - dimitrios1 5y ago
    In suburbia America, where bike lanes are abound and plenty of cyclists to boot, it is the cyclists that are entitled, selfish, arrogant, and ignore the traffic rules. They've recently resorted to riding 4-5 cyclists wide to take up the entire roadway. They ignore stop signs and traffic lights, trying to pass as a pedestrian whenever it is convenient, and have been responsible for many pedestrian related injuries. For the record, I am a cyclist. I would love to use it more. But the roads are too dangerous, and town hall meetings are always full of the same two sides talking past each other. It's a perception issue, but hardcore cyclists refuse to acknowledge it. So the situation continues to not improve.

Grustaf 5y ago

A lot of bike paths here in Copenhagen are simply painted and it works fine, even for small kids.

zip1234 5y ago
Is there actual enforcement of people stopping their car or parking in those lanes? Doesn't happen for the most part in the US.
- Grustaf 5y ago
  You’re definitely not allowed to drive or park in a bike lane, nobody would do that. On some on way side streets they have this weird system where the bike lane and takes up half the road and shares it with parked cars
Symbiote 5y ago
A painted bike line in Copenhagen is huge compared to the lanes they paint in Britain. The British version is about half as wide, and often allows parking for large parts of the day (i.e. is only a lane for a couple of hours). I've never been to Oxford, but someone mentioned Abingdon Road [1]. Just some bike symbols painted on the road. Or a little further up [2] -- that thing on the left is a British cycle lane. If you go forward 3 clicks, you can see it ends almost immediately. You obviously wouldn't take small kids through crap like this: [3]. Unbelievably, this is "National Cycle Route 57" (the StreetView car is pointed the wrong way to see it, but if you search you can find the tiny blue "57" sign at the roundabout.) Other than the bridges, the only part of Central Copenhagen with painted lanes I can think of is Bernstorffsgade [4]. I'm not really sure where you're thinking of for "lots" of bike paths. A little further out [5] is this, where at least the lanes go behind the parked cars, and are wider. https://osm.org/go/0NWvDIpQ-?layers=C https://osm.org/go/0NWvDIpQ-?layers=C shows solid lines for painted lanes, and there aren't many. [1] https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7378951,-1.2521828,3a,70.1y,156.57h,81.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUYPXUALLnx9ptPf7oUg0ng!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DUYPXUALLnx9ptPf7oUg0ng%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D85.06374%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7378951,-1.2521828,3a,70.1y,... [2] https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7471822,-1.2563676,3a,75y,183.8h,86.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKXnY9it6GtahH9yxa-KxZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7471822,-1.2563676,3a,75y,18... [3] https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7504861,-1.2448391,3a,75y,120.29h,81.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spknIUUmQQ56Rf6TZJVoalA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7504861,-1.2448391,3a,75y,12... [4] https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6698747,12.5700607,3a,75y,314.49h,81.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1dJfZwqTJPI0HJ4Gl-puFA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6698747,12.5700607,3a,75y,31... [5] https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6598222,12.6187002,3a,75y,162.05h,83.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOaAIA3pJ0xfUvjQzr4UOfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6598222,12.6187002,3a,75y,16...

pmontra 5y ago

This is perhaps the most trafficked new bike path in Milan, going to the city center from North https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtBeEBgodCw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtBeEBgodCw It was built in Spring/Summer 2020. You may start from 1:00 if you're in hurry, you'll get the idea. They moved the parking area towards the center to make way for a protected bike path. The road is narrower for cars but it was stop and go anyway (mostly stop). Further North, on the way out from the city, they didn't move the parking area. They painted a line between the cars and the parking area.

maxwell86 5y ago

> It is really frustrating how highway engineers, as a profession, are unwilling to consistently learn lessons from the Netherlands in designing cycle infrastructure. These decisions aren't made by highway engineers, they are made by politicians. The highway engineer puts a proper bikelane, makes the highway wider, and tells the politician that its going to cost 100 million dollars to do a couple of kms. The politician says that there is no money for that, at most 10 million, and that they "promised it", and suggests whether one can't paint a line or something for cheap instead. Otherwise, the engineer is fired. So the cousin of the politician ends up being paid 10 million $ for painting a shitty 1000$ line that serves no purpose. There is a systemic difference between the UK and the Netherlands. Suggesting that the UK doesn't have good bike lanes cause Netherlands has better highway engineers is as accurate as suggesting that the UK did Brexit cause their highway engineers are bad.

Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
I wish that were true but, having sat in lots of meetings with them (including an hour with the leader of the County Council last month), that's not my experience. The highway engineers were generally trained in the 80s or thereabouts to value vehicle throughput and continuous speed as their principal outputs. So they continue to build junctions with massive corner radiuses, shared-use pedestrian/cycle paths to maximise the space available for cars, priority for turning cars at side-road crossings, and so on. Here in Oxfordshire you could describe the situation as "officer capture" - the officers continue to design dreck, and the elected politicians aren't (yet) strong enough to reject it.
wolverine876 5y ago
> These decisions aren't made by highway engineers, they are made by politicians. They are made by the public. We need to persaude other citizens, not rely on (and blame) some higher power.
trgn 5y ago
> The highway engineer puts a proper bikelane, makes the highway wider, and tells the politician that its going to cost 100 million dollars to do a couple of kms. Yikes! That's criminal. You can get an excellent bikelane with a few bollards and a paint can. I would say that's a failure of the engineering profession.

johnnyApplePRNG 5y ago

Agreed. I have seen too many cyclists hit and bloodied up by automobiles that I would never think twice about cycling on the road in my area, either. It's just not safe.

globular-toast 5y ago

I've pretty much given up on cycling in the UK. I drive now. It's just not safe or fun any more. The problem is car dominance. 20mph speed limits are flagrantly ignored everywhere, even right next to schools etc. Most drivers have zero experience on the road except for in a car. Cars are getting bigger and bigger and more and more powerful. Streets are lined with cars. Pavements are filled with cars. It's cars everywhere. We've a long way to go before even stopping the tide, let alone turning it around. Even when Netherlands style infrastructure is introduced in the UK it's a laughable failure. It ends up making things worse. See the Dutch style roundabout in Cambridge, for example. It turns out you can't change people's behaviour by painting a few lines on the road.

throw0101a 5y ago

> Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads.. Jason of the Not Just Bikes YT channel calls these bicycle gutters: * https://twitter.com/notjustbikes/status/1431260478303518724 https://twitter.com/notjustbikes/status/1431260478303518724

Tiktaalik 5y ago

> Many cities seem to delight in half-assing their own solutions. You can expand this out to so many other areas, like building code too. It's enormously frustrating that everyone thinks they're a unique snowflake, they cannot learn from other jurisdictions and they must re-invent the wheel. There are so many issues that so many cities are facing that are solved problems in other places.

iso1210 5y ago

Forget the paint, just remove the cars from the roads. Suddenly they become really safe, for everyone.