5 ms·

Or... its being over reported in the west. US counts people who died with covid in the total number, maybe India is a bit more sensible in that regard.

kmos17 5y ago
This is so easily disproved, just look at total deaths for the period. Where do you think they are coming from?
- mk81 5y ago
- everforward 5y ago
  DUIs are up, suicides are up, overdoses are up, and we keep putting off both routine and urgent medical procedures. There are people with cancer whose procedures are getting bumped because hospitals are full. There's a meaningful difference between "died from COVID", "died with COVID", and "died due to circumstances surrounding COVID". Our excess deaths are the sum of those 3 categories. I can tell you for a fact that "died from COVID" is not 100% of those excess deaths, because suicides and overdoses are up. I can't tell you what percentage are in each category, but this "all excess deaths are from COVID" idea is obviously untrue. The CDC data doesn't even agree with equating excess deaths to COVID deaths. [1] Note that they call out accidents and diabetes deaths increasing 15%. 1. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/podcasts/2022/20220107/20220107.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/podcasts/2022/20220107/20...
  - FabHK 5y ago
    > suicides and overdoses are up Do you have reliable statistics on that? Quick ducking showed that suicide rates in the US rose during the 2010's, but it's hard to find more recent numbers. This article claims that suicide rates fell in 2020. https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/03/health/suicide-rate-2020-us-cdc/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/03/health/suicide-rate-2020-...
    - aortega 5y ago
      See this article. Theres an updated one with even more striking statistics. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/health/drug-overdoses-fentanyl-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/health/drug-overdoses-fen...
      - hwillis 5y ago
        You're responding to a question about suicide with a completely different article about opioid deaths, and the article itself attributes those deaths to the still-increasing substitution of fentanyl, which has nothing to do with lockdowns. Yet you're talking about "striking statistics" when suicides did decline. So... a new 22k deaths by overdose, plus 2.5k new vehicular deaths, minus 1.7k suicides, vs 522k excess deaths. There were a total of 45,855 recorded deaths by suicide. ALL suicides, ALL drug overdoses, and ALL traffic fatalities TOGETHER do not add up to half of the excess deaths. You're spewing complete bullshit. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778361 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778361
    - everforward 5y ago
      Somebody else posted the overdoses, I think I stand corrected on the suicides. They're down overall, but up among adolescents and I think my brain extrapolated that out to a general increase. My apologies on the bad data! I'm slightly suspicious of the claim that they fell, because it flies in the face of common sense and historical trends, but weirder things have happened. It just seems strange that amidst a period where people are self-reporting increases in mental health issues that the suicide rate would drop. Suicide hotline calls were way up in 2020 [1] (Crisis Text Line was up 40%, SAMHSA hotline was up circa 500%). Major depressive disorder was up 28% in 2020, and anxiety disorders were up 26%. [2] Perhaps there's a confounding factor here like telehealth increasing the availability of and participation in mental health treatment. Or maybe the abundance of death made people cherish life more. The cynic in me wonders if the data was massaged to maintain support for lockdowns, but I don't have anything to substantiate that, so it's not a declaration of fact. 1. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/05/04/847841791/flood-of-calls-and-texts-to-crisis-hotlines-reflects-americans-rising-anxiety https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/05/04/8478417... 2. https://www.statnews.com/2021/10/08/mental-health-covid19-pandemic-global/ https://www.statnews.com/2021/10/08/mental-health-covid19-pa...
  - gilbetron 5y ago
    Nearly everything you said is incorrect: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234 In 2020, suicides down, cancer deaths down (because covid tends to kill cancer pages much earlier than they would've died, if at all). Some deaths are up, but no where near the numbers to outweigh covid deaths.
    - Ensorceled 5y ago
      Interestingly, the sudden, unexplained spike in a bunch of categories for 2020 is very suspect.
      - gilbetron 5y ago
        Many of them are probably due to the fact that people were less likely to go to the hospital due to fear or hospitals being clogged. Patient care took a big hit, basically.
    - everforward 5y ago
      You're right on the suicides, I misremembered, my apologies. I don't know why you're going after a straw-man here. Your own link even shows that COVID isn't anywhere near 100% of the excess deaths, it's ~70% of them. That's my only point. Excess death is not a suitable proxy for COVID deaths, because COVID deaths are only a portion of the excess deaths, sizeable though it may be. We have excess death, a big portion of those is from COVID, but there are numerous elevated causes of death that also form a substantial portion of those excess deaths. You can't just declare that we have 500k excess deaths, and COVID is around, so COVID killed 500k people.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - depaya 5y ago
    If someone dies because they cannot get treatment in a hospital (because it is full of covid patients) do you not consider that death a byproduct of the covid epidemic?
  - thrwn_frthr_awy 5y ago
    Fwiw a friend mine had a stage 4 breast cancer diagnosis that went undetected for months because of COVID. They have a 92% chance of dying in the next five years. My uncle is got final approval for a heart transplant in December. We are currently unsure if there will hospital room if he gets called this week. COVID is killing people just fine with or without the disease and the unvaccinated by choice need to stop taking up hospitals beds.
- refurb 5y ago
  Looks at the CDC numbers. Accidental deaths are up several fold.
  - hwillis 5y ago
    - refurb 5y ago
      Several fold was wrong “up significantly” is correct. Same with other non-Covid causes of death.
    - dang 5y ago
      Please do not cross into personal attack*, no matter how wrong another comment is or you feel it is. * "Lying" implies intent to deceive. Piling on with "blatantly" is being aggressive. Please don't post like that to this site. If someone else is wrong, it's enough to respectfully provide correct information.
- an9n 5y ago
  Can't be flu can it, because that's miraculously disappeared!
  - CorrectHorseBat 5y ago
    If you call all the measures against covid miraculously, sure. And why would the flu deaths suddenly be up so much compared to earlier years? And how would it do that while we're looking for it and don't find it?
  - triceratops 5y ago
    What's miraculous about flu disappearing? Most Covid countermeasures (masking, distancing) work on flu, we already had a flu vaccine, and flu is far less contagious.
    - bena 5y ago
      I'd also imagine that if you were susceptible to the flu, you'd also be susceptible to COVID. So some of those who got COVID got that instead of the flu.
- ekianjo 5y ago
  > This is so easily disproved Oh, you were checking every dying patient?
- aortega 5y ago
  > just look at total deaths for the period. Where do you think they are coming from? People clearly died. Now, the question is, they died directly from covid, or died from effects of the lockdown?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ycIsGarbage 5y ago
hogrider 5y ago
It is well documented they straight up covered up covid deaths in republican states.
- vixen99 5y ago
  If you make comments like this, why not provide some link as a 'reason to believe'. For all I know you're absolutely spot on but I won't get far quoting "hogrider on HN" as a source, will I? And if your observation thus goes no further, what's the point of it?

kmos17 5y ago

This is so easily disproved, just look at total deaths for the period. Where do you think they are coming from?

mk81 5y ago
everforward 5y ago
DUIs are up, suicides are up, overdoses are up, and we keep putting off both routine and urgent medical procedures. There are people with cancer whose procedures are getting bumped because hospitals are full. There's a meaningful difference between "died from COVID", "died with COVID", and "died due to circumstances surrounding COVID". Our excess deaths are the sum of those 3 categories. I can tell you for a fact that "died from COVID" is not 100% of those excess deaths, because suicides and overdoses are up. I can't tell you what percentage are in each category, but this "all excess deaths are from COVID" idea is obviously untrue. The CDC data doesn't even agree with equating excess deaths to COVID deaths. [1] Note that they call out accidents and diabetes deaths increasing 15%. 1. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/podcasts/2022/20220107/20220107.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/podcasts/2022/20220107/20...
- FabHK 5y ago
  > suicides and overdoses are up Do you have reliable statistics on that? Quick ducking showed that suicide rates in the US rose during the 2010's, but it's hard to find more recent numbers. This article claims that suicide rates fell in 2020. https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/03/health/suicide-rate-2020-us-cdc/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/03/health/suicide-rate-2020-...
  - aortega 5y ago
    See this article. Theres an updated one with even more striking statistics. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/health/drug-overdoses-fentanyl-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/health/drug-overdoses-fen...
    - hwillis 5y ago
      You're responding to a question about suicide with a completely different article about opioid deaths, and the article itself attributes those deaths to the still-increasing substitution of fentanyl, which has nothing to do with lockdowns. Yet you're talking about "striking statistics" when suicides did decline. So... a new 22k deaths by overdose, plus 2.5k new vehicular deaths, minus 1.7k suicides, vs 522k excess deaths. There were a total of 45,855 recorded deaths by suicide. ALL suicides, ALL drug overdoses, and ALL traffic fatalities TOGETHER do not add up to half of the excess deaths. You're spewing complete bullshit. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778361 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778361
  - everforward 5y ago
    Somebody else posted the overdoses, I think I stand corrected on the suicides. They're down overall, but up among adolescents and I think my brain extrapolated that out to a general increase. My apologies on the bad data! I'm slightly suspicious of the claim that they fell, because it flies in the face of common sense and historical trends, but weirder things have happened. It just seems strange that amidst a period where people are self-reporting increases in mental health issues that the suicide rate would drop. Suicide hotline calls were way up in 2020 [1] (Crisis Text Line was up 40%, SAMHSA hotline was up circa 500%). Major depressive disorder was up 28% in 2020, and anxiety disorders were up 26%. [2] Perhaps there's a confounding factor here like telehealth increasing the availability of and participation in mental health treatment. Or maybe the abundance of death made people cherish life more. The cynic in me wonders if the data was massaged to maintain support for lockdowns, but I don't have anything to substantiate that, so it's not a declaration of fact. 1. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/05/04/847841791/flood-of-calls-and-texts-to-crisis-hotlines-reflects-americans-rising-anxiety https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/05/04/8478417... 2. https://www.statnews.com/2021/10/08/mental-health-covid19-pandemic-global/ https://www.statnews.com/2021/10/08/mental-health-covid19-pa...
- gilbetron 5y ago
  Nearly everything you said is incorrect: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234 In 2020, suicides down, cancer deaths down (because covid tends to kill cancer pages much earlier than they would've died, if at all). Some deaths are up, but no where near the numbers to outweigh covid deaths.
  - Ensorceled 5y ago
    Interestingly, the sudden, unexplained spike in a bunch of categories for 2020 is very suspect.
    - gilbetron 5y ago
      Many of them are probably due to the fact that people were less likely to go to the hospital due to fear or hospitals being clogged. Patient care took a big hit, basically.
  - everforward 5y ago
    You're right on the suicides, I misremembered, my apologies. I don't know why you're going after a straw-man here. Your own link even shows that COVID isn't anywhere near 100% of the excess deaths, it's ~70% of them. That's my only point. Excess death is not a suitable proxy for COVID deaths, because COVID deaths are only a portion of the excess deaths, sizeable though it may be. We have excess death, a big portion of those is from COVID, but there are numerous elevated causes of death that also form a substantial portion of those excess deaths. You can't just declare that we have 500k excess deaths, and COVID is around, so COVID killed 500k people.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- depaya 5y ago
  If someone dies because they cannot get treatment in a hospital (because it is full of covid patients) do you not consider that death a byproduct of the covid epidemic?
- thrwn_frthr_awy 5y ago
  Fwiw a friend mine had a stage 4 breast cancer diagnosis that went undetected for months because of COVID. They have a 92% chance of dying in the next five years. My uncle is got final approval for a heart transplant in December. We are currently unsure if there will hospital room if he gets called this week. COVID is killing people just fine with or without the disease and the unvaccinated by choice need to stop taking up hospitals beds.
refurb 5y ago
Looks at the CDC numbers. Accidental deaths are up several fold.
- hwillis 5y ago
  - refurb 5y ago
    Several fold was wrong “up significantly” is correct. Same with other non-Covid causes of death.
  - dang 5y ago
    Please do not cross into personal attack*, no matter how wrong another comment is or you feel it is. * "Lying" implies intent to deceive. Piling on with "blatantly" is being aggressive. Please don't post like that to this site. If someone else is wrong, it's enough to respectfully provide correct information.
an9n 5y ago
Can't be flu can it, because that's miraculously disappeared!
- CorrectHorseBat 5y ago
  If you call all the measures against covid miraculously, sure. And why would the flu deaths suddenly be up so much compared to earlier years? And how would it do that while we're looking for it and don't find it?
- triceratops 5y ago
  What's miraculous about flu disappearing? Most Covid countermeasures (masking, distancing) work on flu, we already had a flu vaccine, and flu is far less contagious.
  - bena 5y ago
    I'd also imagine that if you were susceptible to the flu, you'd also be susceptible to COVID. So some of those who got COVID got that instead of the flu.
ekianjo 5y ago
> This is so easily disproved Oh, you were checking every dying patient?
aortega 5y ago
> just look at total deaths for the period. Where do you think they are coming from? People clearly died. Now, the question is, they died directly from covid, or died from effects of the lockdown?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

ycIsGarbage 5y ago

hogrider 5y ago

It is well documented they straight up covered up covid deaths in republican states.

vixen99 5y ago
If you make comments like this, why not provide some link as a 'reason to believe'. For all I know you're absolutely spot on but I won't get far quoting "hogrider on HN" as a source, will I? And if your observation thus goes no further, what's the point of it?