5 ms·

Fred Hates It

50 points by filament 15y ago

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
unwind 15y ago
Very annoying typo in the HN title, it should be "Fred", not "Freds".
neilk 15y ago
Sometimes management believes that it's important to get away not just from the usual business context, but any productive context. I guess they are afraid it might interfere with the intangible benefits of bonding. So what do you do when management is only interested in the trust falls, personality tests, and outsider facilitators? How do you make the case for a different kind of offsite?
- JacobAldridge 15y ago
  This sort of activity needs a return on investment - a key part of the note-taking is being able to return three months later (or whenever is appropriate) to those notes and the actions that feel out of the meeting and document what return you got from them. I worked at one company where off-sites (I don't like that term either, and I now run them fairly often!) were quarterly and basically involved drinking for two days (with some 'activities' and the occasional strategy discussion, which was usually two hours of the two days). Most staff were on below average salaries because the business wasn't consistently profitable. They really needed to examine the ROI on these retreats - I think they could have done away with them entirely with no change to future growth, and a lot more available cash to bump up a few salaries. Or (more importantly), invested that cash in having someone external (ie, with experience doing them properly) to come in and show them how to run the two days - delivering a healthy ROI that would have made everyone happier.
nhashem 15y ago
I'm Fred. I've always been Fred. I wonder at times whether this has been more helpful or harmful to my career. As Fred, I've rarely hesitated to speak my mind, and so I've gotten ideas pushed forward that would have definitely been DOA if I hadn't been so outspoken about them. That being said, I've been so abrasively outspoken at times I've seen former peers with just as outspoken but not so confrontational communication styles advance far beyond where I am now. I suppose my gut evaluation is I'm further along than if I had kept my mouth shut, but not as far as if I had been able to effectively communicated my positions (or known when to withhold communication entirely) -- then again, doesn't that apply to pretty much everyone? Rands juxtaposes each of his points with "Why Fred Hates It," deftly countering them with reasonable and logical arguments that make Fred seem like an anti-team player cancer. And then he ties it all together by saying Fred is essentially a product of frustration because no matter how committed his company seems to be to solving the big picture issues that have been painfully obvious to him for months/years, if the company doesn't actually enable solutions, then all the off-sites are pointless. In recent years I've mellowed out, moving more to a "Jim from The Office" attitude (Loser Jim, Not Sociopath Jim[1]) where I just smirk and go through the motions for things like off-sites, and figure any actual production that results in any long-term company improvement is a nice bonus, not an expectation. But in the end, we all want to be startup founders because it's a lot easier to turn dreams into action at our own small company than to figure out how to do it at someone else's larger company. [1] http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-o...
- rands 15y ago
  I finally created a HackerNews account just to say how much I love this comment. Hopefully, the piece doesn't come off as anti-Fred. I'm a huge Fred fan.
- ebiester 15y ago
  The question is, do you want to move up? If someone wants to move up within the organization, this is a quick reading list. Getting to Yes -- If you only have a chance to read one, read this. It is about how to effectively collaborate toward a solution, and it works in functional work environments. It will be around in a big enough used bookstore. How to Win Friends and Influence People -- Another oldie but goodie. It's a quick skim, and it's in every used bookstore. It has influenced interpersonal communication in the corporate world for nearly a century, and most people are taking their cues from this book. The Personal MBA: Master the Art of Business -- It's a condensation of many of the terms in business, and a reflection of the current corporate zeitgeist. Then, read two top selling business books a year. They're usually quick reads, and you want to speak the same language as the people reading these books. How does this help? By speaking the same language as the people making decisions, you are perceived as "one of them." This gives a common bond, and they perceive you as more likely to "understand business." By participating in collaborative conflict management, you are perceived to be a "team player." You can make the same good decisions without a confrontational work environment if all parties are speaking the same language. And all of these will help you run your own company, because you will be talking to other businessmen who are reading these books. They will trust you more if they perceive you as "one of them," and you will be able to describe how your product produces a return on investment in their language.
frossie 15y ago
Off-site meetings are useful to small teams too - it gets them away from the daily firefighting and able to focus on big infrastructure problems, kick-offs of new projects and so on, just like in the examples given. They don't have to cost money - find one member of the team that has wifi and doesn't live in a pigsty and go hang out in their living room/kitchen table/back yard. I agree with the OP that the overnight is critical - people can just couchsurf or go home at night and come back the next day. And who needs stupid made-up icebreakers when you all have to pitch it to make dinner?
snorkel 15y ago
Fred is sort of right. Off-sites are often feel good democratic brainstorming exercises, but trying to design a product by democratic brainstorm seldom works well. Some people have a talent for selling passionate ideas that just plain suck. If Fred is a good UI designer with a clear vision than its probably better to trust his instincts, and tell him to work on his people skills.

Fred Hates It

50 points by filament 15y ago

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

unwind 15y ago

Very annoying typo in the HN title, it should be "Fred", not "Freds".

neilk 15y ago

Sometimes management believes that it's important to get away not just from the usual business context, but any productive context. I guess they are afraid it might interfere with the intangible benefits of bonding. So what do you do when management is only interested in the trust falls, personality tests, and outsider facilitators? How do you make the case for a different kind of offsite?

JacobAldridge 15y ago
This sort of activity needs a return on investment - a key part of the note-taking is being able to return three months later (or whenever is appropriate) to those notes and the actions that feel out of the meeting and document what return you got from them. I worked at one company where off-sites (I don't like that term either, and I now run them fairly often!) were quarterly and basically involved drinking for two days (with some 'activities' and the occasional strategy discussion, which was usually two hours of the two days). Most staff were on below average salaries because the business wasn't consistently profitable. They really needed to examine the ROI on these retreats - I think they could have done away with them entirely with no change to future growth, and a lot more available cash to bump up a few salaries. Or (more importantly), invested that cash in having someone external (ie, with experience doing them properly) to come in and show them how to run the two days - delivering a healthy ROI that would have made everyone happier.

nhashem 15y ago

I'm Fred. I've always been Fred. I wonder at times whether this has been more helpful or harmful to my career. As Fred, I've rarely hesitated to speak my mind, and so I've gotten ideas pushed forward that would have definitely been DOA if I hadn't been so outspoken about them. That being said, I've been so abrasively outspoken at times I've seen former peers with just as outspoken but not so confrontational communication styles advance far beyond where I am now. I suppose my gut evaluation is I'm further along than if I had kept my mouth shut, but not as far as if I had been able to effectively communicated my positions (or known when to withhold communication entirely) -- then again, doesn't that apply to pretty much everyone? Rands juxtaposes each of his points with "Why Fred Hates It," deftly countering them with reasonable and logical arguments that make Fred seem like an anti-team player cancer. And then he ties it all together by saying Fred is essentially a product of frustration because no matter how committed his company seems to be to solving the big picture issues that have been painfully obvious to him for months/years, if the company doesn't actually enable solutions, then all the off-sites are pointless. In recent years I've mellowed out, moving more to a "Jim from The Office" attitude (Loser Jim, Not Sociopath Jim[1]) where I just smirk and go through the motions for things like off-sites, and figure any actual production that results in any long-term company improvement is a nice bonus, not an expectation. But in the end, we all want to be startup founders because it's a lot easier to turn dreams into action at our own small company than to figure out how to do it at someone else's larger company. [1] http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-o...

rands 15y ago
I finally created a HackerNews account just to say how much I love this comment. Hopefully, the piece doesn't come off as anti-Fred. I'm a huge Fred fan.
ebiester 15y ago
The question is, do you want to move up? If someone wants to move up within the organization, this is a quick reading list. Getting to Yes -- If you only have a chance to read one, read this. It is about how to effectively collaborate toward a solution, and it works in functional work environments. It will be around in a big enough used bookstore. How to Win Friends and Influence People -- Another oldie but goodie. It's a quick skim, and it's in every used bookstore. It has influenced interpersonal communication in the corporate world for nearly a century, and most people are taking their cues from this book. The Personal MBA: Master the Art of Business -- It's a condensation of many of the terms in business, and a reflection of the current corporate zeitgeist. Then, read two top selling business books a year. They're usually quick reads, and you want to speak the same language as the people reading these books. How does this help? By speaking the same language as the people making decisions, you are perceived as "one of them." This gives a common bond, and they perceive you as more likely to "understand business." By participating in collaborative conflict management, you are perceived to be a "team player." You can make the same good decisions without a confrontational work environment if all parties are speaking the same language. And all of these will help you run your own company, because you will be talking to other businessmen who are reading these books. They will trust you more if they perceive you as "one of them," and you will be able to describe how your product produces a return on investment in their language.

frossie 15y ago

Off-site meetings are useful to small teams too - it gets them away from the daily firefighting and able to focus on big infrastructure problems, kick-offs of new projects and so on, just like in the examples given. They don't have to cost money - find one member of the team that has wifi and doesn't live in a pigsty and go hang out in their living room/kitchen table/back yard. I agree with the OP that the overnight is critical - people can just couchsurf or go home at night and come back the next day. And who needs stupid made-up icebreakers when you all have to pitch it to make dinner?

snorkel 15y ago

Fred is sort of right. Off-sites are often feel good democratic brainstorming exercises, but trying to design a product by democratic brainstorm seldom works well. Some people have a talent for selling passionate ideas that just plain suck. If Fred is a good UI designer with a clear vision than its probably better to trust his instincts, and tell him to work on his people skills.