5 ms·

Anyone that's worried about autoimmune phenomena after vaccination should look at autoimmune phenomena post Covid infection

odiroot 5y ago
Isn't cytokine storm in the late stage of corona infection exactly that?
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Kinda, but I'm not sure if it fits the autoimmune definition or just a runoff immune response (but still against the antigens)
robrorcroptrer 5y ago
What if I got infected before being eligible to be vaccinated?
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Then most likely you're not amongst the ones that suffer a reaction
yunohn 5y ago
But you can get COVID after vaccination too? How exactly does your argument sway someone either way? Just saying that both the disease and the vaccine cause the same side effects is not much of an argument… Disclaimer: I’m fully vaccinated.
- robbiep 5y ago
  But they aren’t in the same magnitude - for example, incidences of peri/myocarditis is 30x (at a minimum) greater in someone who has COVID vs someone vaccinated; and vaccination leads to shorter milder breakthrough infections which (should - I can’t claim to have seen a study) lead to a lower incidence compared to someone who was unvaccinated and infected
  - yunohn 5y ago
    Yes, that’s my doubt as well. Until we have more unbiased studies coming out, we can’t determine the impact of these side effects. The problem with pro-vaccine propaganda is that it tells you to blindly listen to the science. The problem with that is “the science” is controlled by commercial interests and profit margins. It’s like telling everyone democracy is the One True Way and we end up in last-stage capitalism.
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      > The problem with that is “the science” is controlled by commercial interests and profit margins. Is it? A good proportion of academia is funded by states, non-profits, and tuition from undergraduate students, and researchers generally operate with a great degree of autonomy. Of course there is corrupt research out there, but I see little evidence that it's pervasive.
      - yunohn 5y ago
        I don’t think it’s reasonable to live in 2022 and argue that academia isn’t influenced by capitalistic interests. This is so backwards of a viewpoint that I don’t have the time to argue further.
        nicoburns 5y ago
        "influenced" is a much weaker claim than "controlled". Yes, there's a commercial influence, but does that prevent studies that are against those commercial interests from being conducted or those commercial studies from being criticised: no it doesn't.
        yunohn 5y ago
        I did not intend to weaken my claim - I actually do believe that most of research is controlled by commercial interests in one way or another. Governments and corporations alike allocate capital towards research that they think benefits the populace or shareholders. This is measured with a dollar value, like most things in life (thank you last stage capitalism). While the influence on certain topics might be lesser, it is definitely stronger for other topics. The vaccines are a good example of the latter, since it’s a highly profitable venture with a TAM of the entire global population. You can see this in broad daylight where Pfizer wanted to make their data public only after 75 years (1). Surely good science doesn’t need secrecy? If this doesn’t invoke skepticism into how most research is influenced similarly, I’m not sure what to say. (1) https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/paramount-importance-judge-orders-fda-hasten-release-pfizer-vaccine-docs-2022-01-07/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/paramount-importanc...
refurb 5y ago
Ok, but if I get vaccines I’m exposed, but may not be exposed to Covid or at least a variant that causes an immune disorder.
- robbiep 5y ago
  You’re at a 30x (minimum) increased risk, as well as running a 0.5-2% chance of dying depending on your state of health. If you’re less than 18, you have a higher risk of type 1 OR type 2 diabetes. Anyone who willingly runs that risk in the light of a (let’s face it, extremely safe) alternative is making some sort of strange calculus that is not in any way rational
  - refurb 5y ago
    Source for 30x risk of autoimmune disorder? And no, the floor of fatality is not 0.5%, you’re off by an order of magnitude (too high) at least. And source for risk of diabetes. You’re throwing a lot of “facts” around that don’t seem to be true.
    - manwe150 5y ago
      Nearly 0.2% of the US has died of COVID, so he can’t be that far off on his estimate, not knowing the age of yourself or other readers.
      - refurb 5y ago
        He said the lower bound was 0.5%. So as a healthy 30 year you’re saying my risk of death is 0.5%? And note the CDC said they’ll be providing data on who “died with covid” versus who “died from covid”.
        manwe150 5y ago
        Yeah, 0.5% might be a plausible lower estimate for his statement of an average member of the US population, but is probably a bit low. That assumes that 50% of the US population already got COVID, 0% got vaccinated, and none of them get COVID again. What we actually know is that re-infection with omicron is fairly common, that there are still many (unvaccinated) people have not yet ever been infected, and that the majority of the US is vaccinated. So, I can't say your risk, since you didn't mention if you are vaccinated. Being vaccinated is statistically the best way to reduce the risk of death or other severe long-term health issues (other than getting younger) relative to your baseline risk, largely independent of age (the trials for very young children are still on-going). My sources for this are talking to doctors and reading the official reports.
_pmf_ 5y ago
> Anyone that's worried about autoimmune phenomena after vaccination should look at autoimmune phenomena post Covid infection Hard to ignore, what with this being shoved down my throat 24/7 for 1.5 years.
mellavora 5y ago
Disclaimer: Former public health researcher; strongly pro-vaccine. Your point is true. However, people may find the phrasing slightly aggressive. The people posting symptom reports here mostly seem to be level-headed and understanding of the public health benefit they took a risk to bring about. There needs to be an accepting forum for people to report negative outcomes. Such statements provide necessary information on the risks associated with the vaccine, and how to mitigate these risks. They are pro-vaccine.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  > There needs to be an accepting forum for people to report negative outcomes. Such statements provide necessary information on the risks associated with the vaccine, and how to mitigate these risks. I definitely agree with this, and the risks should be known. Especially in the context of a spreading virus.
rjsw 5y ago
Maybe the people affected would have got the same autoimmune reaction from both vaccination and infection. For me, the post-viral symptoms have been a lot worse than the virus itself.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  > Maybe the people affected would have got the same autoimmune reaction from both vaccination and infection. Hard to tell directly, as it also has to do with how the virus spreads during an infection in a given person. But it is certainly a good area of research.
- cromwellian 5y ago
  I developed gout in my mid 20s after a viral infection. My uric acid is always in the normal range and I get stereotypical gout symptoms including Tophi now that I’m 50. I can usually predict a gout attack when I get a cold, I have a feeling my immune system gets ramped up and my feet are collateral damage. So I guess my point is, what percentage of the population is like my case and will eventually get an autoimmune issue from a viral infection? Omicron looks like it’s be eventually going to infect everyone, so avoiding the vaccine for a one in a million autoimmune reaction might be delaying the inevitable when you get infected by Omicron for real.
  - rjsw 5y ago
    I have had autoimmune reactions from other viral infections too. I don't think I got any worse after COVID-19 vaccination so I don't regret having it done if it helps the overall public health situation.

odiroot 5y ago

Isn't cytokine storm in the late stage of corona infection exactly that?

raverbashing 5y ago
Kinda, but I'm not sure if it fits the autoimmune definition or just a runoff immune response (but still against the antigens)

robrorcroptrer 5y ago

What if I got infected before being eligible to be vaccinated?

raverbashing 5y ago
Then most likely you're not amongst the ones that suffer a reaction

yunohn 5y ago

But you can get COVID after vaccination too? How exactly does your argument sway someone either way? Just saying that both the disease and the vaccine cause the same side effects is not much of an argument… Disclaimer: I’m fully vaccinated.

robbiep 5y ago
But they aren’t in the same magnitude - for example, incidences of peri/myocarditis is 30x (at a minimum) greater in someone who has COVID vs someone vaccinated; and vaccination leads to shorter milder breakthrough infections which (should - I can’t claim to have seen a study) lead to a lower incidence compared to someone who was unvaccinated and infected
- yunohn 5y ago
  Yes, that’s my doubt as well. Until we have more unbiased studies coming out, we can’t determine the impact of these side effects. The problem with pro-vaccine propaganda is that it tells you to blindly listen to the science. The problem with that is “the science” is controlled by commercial interests and profit margins. It’s like telling everyone democracy is the One True Way and we end up in last-stage capitalism.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    > The problem with that is “the science” is controlled by commercial interests and profit margins. Is it? A good proportion of academia is funded by states, non-profits, and tuition from undergraduate students, and researchers generally operate with a great degree of autonomy. Of course there is corrupt research out there, but I see little evidence that it's pervasive.
    - yunohn 5y ago
      I don’t think it’s reasonable to live in 2022 and argue that academia isn’t influenced by capitalistic interests. This is so backwards of a viewpoint that I don’t have the time to argue further.
      - nicoburns 5y ago
        "influenced" is a much weaker claim than "controlled". Yes, there's a commercial influence, but does that prevent studies that are against those commercial interests from being conducted or those commercial studies from being criticised: no it doesn't.
        yunohn 5y ago
        I did not intend to weaken my claim - I actually do believe that most of research is controlled by commercial interests in one way or another. Governments and corporations alike allocate capital towards research that they think benefits the populace or shareholders. This is measured with a dollar value, like most things in life (thank you last stage capitalism). While the influence on certain topics might be lesser, it is definitely stronger for other topics. The vaccines are a good example of the latter, since it’s a highly profitable venture with a TAM of the entire global population. You can see this in broad daylight where Pfizer wanted to make their data public only after 75 years (1). Surely good science doesn’t need secrecy? If this doesn’t invoke skepticism into how most research is influenced similarly, I’m not sure what to say. (1) https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/paramount-importance-judge-orders-fda-hasten-release-pfizer-vaccine-docs-2022-01-07/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/paramount-importanc...

refurb 5y ago

Ok, but if I get vaccines I’m exposed, but may not be exposed to Covid or at least a variant that causes an immune disorder.

robbiep 5y ago
You’re at a 30x (minimum) increased risk, as well as running a 0.5-2% chance of dying depending on your state of health. If you’re less than 18, you have a higher risk of type 1 OR type 2 diabetes. Anyone who willingly runs that risk in the light of a (let’s face it, extremely safe) alternative is making some sort of strange calculus that is not in any way rational
- refurb 5y ago
  Source for 30x risk of autoimmune disorder? And no, the floor of fatality is not 0.5%, you’re off by an order of magnitude (too high) at least. And source for risk of diabetes. You’re throwing a lot of “facts” around that don’t seem to be true.
  - manwe150 5y ago
    Nearly 0.2% of the US has died of COVID, so he can’t be that far off on his estimate, not knowing the age of yourself or other readers.
    - refurb 5y ago
      He said the lower bound was 0.5%. So as a healthy 30 year you’re saying my risk of death is 0.5%? And note the CDC said they’ll be providing data on who “died with covid” versus who “died from covid”.
      - manwe150 5y ago
        Yeah, 0.5% might be a plausible lower estimate for his statement of an average member of the US population, but is probably a bit low. That assumes that 50% of the US population already got COVID, 0% got vaccinated, and none of them get COVID again. What we actually know is that re-infection with omicron is fairly common, that there are still many (unvaccinated) people have not yet ever been infected, and that the majority of the US is vaccinated. So, I can't say your risk, since you didn't mention if you are vaccinated. Being vaccinated is statistically the best way to reduce the risk of death or other severe long-term health issues (other than getting younger) relative to your baseline risk, largely independent of age (the trials for very young children are still on-going). My sources for this are talking to doctors and reading the official reports.

_pmf_ 5y ago

> Anyone that's worried about autoimmune phenomena after vaccination should look at autoimmune phenomena post Covid infection Hard to ignore, what with this being shoved down my throat 24/7 for 1.5 years.

mellavora 5y ago

Disclaimer: Former public health researcher; strongly pro-vaccine. Your point is true. However, people may find the phrasing slightly aggressive. The people posting symptom reports here mostly seem to be level-headed and understanding of the public health benefit they took a risk to bring about. There needs to be an accepting forum for people to report negative outcomes. Such statements provide necessary information on the risks associated with the vaccine, and how to mitigate these risks. They are pro-vaccine.

raverbashing 5y ago
> There needs to be an accepting forum for people to report negative outcomes. Such statements provide necessary information on the risks associated with the vaccine, and how to mitigate these risks. I definitely agree with this, and the risks should be known. Especially in the context of a spreading virus.

rjsw 5y ago

Maybe the people affected would have got the same autoimmune reaction from both vaccination and infection. For me, the post-viral symptoms have been a lot worse than the virus itself.

raverbashing 5y ago
> Maybe the people affected would have got the same autoimmune reaction from both vaccination and infection. Hard to tell directly, as it also has to do with how the virus spreads during an infection in a given person. But it is certainly a good area of research.
cromwellian 5y ago
I developed gout in my mid 20s after a viral infection. My uric acid is always in the normal range and I get stereotypical gout symptoms including Tophi now that I’m 50. I can usually predict a gout attack when I get a cold, I have a feeling my immune system gets ramped up and my feet are collateral damage. So I guess my point is, what percentage of the population is like my case and will eventually get an autoimmune issue from a viral infection? Omicron looks like it’s be eventually going to infect everyone, so avoiding the vaccine for a one in a million autoimmune reaction might be delaying the inevitable when you get infected by Omicron for real.
- rjsw 5y ago
  I have had autoimmune reactions from other viral infections too. I don't think I got any worse after COVID-19 vaccination so I don't regret having it done if it helps the overall public health situation.