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It really depends on the culture. Discernment is still really necessary. I've read a few things that suggest the Inuit have the most gentle approach to children

It really depends on the culture. Discernment is still really necessary. I've read a few things that suggest the Inuit have the most gentle approach to children. With respect to showing them limits, what you're describing aren't natural limits. It sounds like you didn't reach a limit beyond your control, but made a calculated decision. That's not a natural limit; that's an arbitrarily chosen one. Gentle parenting suggests offering cuddles, hugs, gentle restraint (I haven't looked into what this means), and other forms of emotional connection. It's not about patient permissiveness, but connecting with the emotional state of the child and holding space for them to feel their feelings. Also, something I often see and hear is people getting distracted by the behavior instead of connecting with the needs being expressed. Usually, there was something that preceded the behavior. We had grandparents over and unbeknownst to me, grandma (who loves making mean jokes) threw a diaper at the child. The next day, they threw something at her. Everyone focused on the act of throwing it instead of what came before the throwing. Kids do what they learn from others. If they're taught to emotionally/verbally hit, they'll learn that hurting by physically hitting others is a way to accomplish whatever the verbal/emotional hits are doing as soon as they learn hitting hurts, too. They're not stupid and this is not a hard logical leap anyway. Also, anything that gets more focused attention than the norm will be repeated. That's why giving deep quality attention and connection is the easiest way to prevent unwanted behaviors. There's no need to act out if not acting out gets the job done. Otherwise, act out. There's a lot more to this and I'm still learning myself. Things to search for along these lines are gentle parenting and mindful parenting. On a related note, did you read about the dev who crashed thousands of apps and sites today? That person clearly has needs going unmet. I wonder if anyone's reached out to them and asked what they need yet. Think I'll do that next.

xwolfi 5y ago
Yeah sometimes I feel people and books consider that children are perfect and THEN corrupted by learning bad habits from adults. But I was very surprised to instead discover that children are selfish, lazy, cowards, dishonest, and generally never do what's right for themselves by default. I think children are stupid, not in a bad way, but in a "potential to realise" way: they are really not yet adapted to compromise, emotional connection, delayed gratification etc and a LOT of education seems to be to yank it out of them by coercion, rather than patient discussion. Even if it's just going to the corner of the room after you broke a toy out of anger: sometimes, you must humiliate to persist the negative result of a negative action. Do Inuit benefit from the very harsh environment to make children so dependent on listening to their parents they rebel less you think ? When the choice is do as I say or stand in the ice, maybe ... that's environmental coercion :D
- crawfordcomeaux 5y ago
  I don't think you've learned how to abandon judgment in order to be able to perceive human behavior clearly enough to recognize what's going on. Children aren't naturally cowards...they're naturally curious to the point that they can die from it. They're not selfish...they're simply not ready to care for other people yet as they're still learning how to meet their own needs. They're not lazy...they've been taught emotional avoidance and have different priorities than adults trying to push adult priorities onto kids. Based on how the world's working right now, that's fucking brilliant, not stupid. I say let the adults suck it. Go cry in a corner. They're not dishonest...they're trying to get their needs met through whatever means necessary. If I sat here and told you all these truths and you still didn't believe me about kids, know what I'd do next? Lie to you, if that's what it takes to meet the needs of the situation and people involved. I'd tell the biggest lie if it would end oppression. As for never doing what's right for themselves, the stuff I wrote in my previous comment is about someone who's been doing most of that stuff since before they were 2. They're able to identify plants. They know which ones not to eat and the only times they try to are to tease us. Nobody's born perfect. There is, however, definitely programming going on that's impacting every person starting from when they're in the womb and before. And for sure there's a shitload of it when they come out. This is an incredibly important point: we are all programming each other when we interact in various ways and society largely ignores this fact. There's no fucking way a 1-year old is reacting to something without there being some kind of conditioning at play. That's simply not possible. Children learn to communicate their needs going unmet first by crying. That's what babies are doing when they cry. Then, they learn to ask physically. Then verbally. I don't remember why I wrote this, but I'm keeping it because it's worth knowing. And anger is almost always a sign of deeper unmet emotional needs. Piling humiliation on top of it doesn't address the sadness, fear, frustration, or whatever that's built up into the anger. You speak of rebellion. Sounds like you want obedience. I'm not saying you do...just saying it sounds like it. Every being has a need for autonomy. It's a defining aspect of most life. If you want obedience, you're already seeking to deny that need. Rebellion is the emotionally immature reaction, when obedience isn't working for someone. The emotionally mature response is to bring in compassion for all parties and help the ones seeking to deny others' needs come to realize what's going on inside of them that's leading them to ignore the needs of others. Another thing about kids is they're WAY more easily programmed than adults are. And we have around the world many cultures that do not teach compromise, emotional connection, delayed gratification, mindfulness, or even wtf humans need to survive and thrive. And we have many education systems that don't even bother to address those issues. So why would I ever expect a young person to develop those skills without being born to or nurtured by extraordinary people/circumstances? As for the Inuit, from what I've read about cultures in harsh environments is that the need for gentleness becomes pretty fucking apparent pretty quick. The Inuit aren't simply gentle, though...they're emotionally connecting with their kids and respecting autonomy, so they're probably not experiencing much rebellion. I did a brief google search here to find some clarity and what I found was this, which suggests teenage rebellion isn't a human universal. This tracks with what I've read before. https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-blogs/149004-the-myth-of-teenage-rebellion.html https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-blogs/149004-the-my... I want to invite children to rebel against the school system, learn about compassion, and form roaming gangs in neighborhoods seeking to liberate more children and help more parents connect with their kids. Because the adult world as it stands is clearly out of alignment with nature and how the adults are handling it is clearly out of alignment with the needs of young people.

xwolfi 5y ago

Yeah sometimes I feel people and books consider that children are perfect and THEN corrupted by learning bad habits from adults. But I was very surprised to instead discover that children are selfish, lazy, cowards, dishonest, and generally never do what's right for themselves by default. I think children are stupid, not in a bad way, but in a "potential to realise" way: they are really not yet adapted to compromise, emotional connection, delayed gratification etc and a LOT of education seems to be to yank it out of them by coercion, rather than patient discussion. Even if it's just going to the corner of the room after you broke a toy out of anger: sometimes, you must humiliate to persist the negative result of a negative action. Do Inuit benefit from the very harsh environment to make children so dependent on listening to their parents they rebel less you think ? When the choice is do as I say or stand in the ice, maybe ... that's environmental coercion :D

crawfordcomeaux 5y ago
I don't think you've learned how to abandon judgment in order to be able to perceive human behavior clearly enough to recognize what's going on. Children aren't naturally cowards...they're naturally curious to the point that they can die from it. They're not selfish...they're simply not ready to care for other people yet as they're still learning how to meet their own needs. They're not lazy...they've been taught emotional avoidance and have different priorities than adults trying to push adult priorities onto kids. Based on how the world's working right now, that's fucking brilliant, not stupid. I say let the adults suck it. Go cry in a corner. They're not dishonest...they're trying to get their needs met through whatever means necessary. If I sat here and told you all these truths and you still didn't believe me about kids, know what I'd do next? Lie to you, if that's what it takes to meet the needs of the situation and people involved. I'd tell the biggest lie if it would end oppression. As for never doing what's right for themselves, the stuff I wrote in my previous comment is about someone who's been doing most of that stuff since before they were 2. They're able to identify plants. They know which ones not to eat and the only times they try to are to tease us. Nobody's born perfect. There is, however, definitely programming going on that's impacting every person starting from when they're in the womb and before. And for sure there's a shitload of it when they come out. This is an incredibly important point: we are all programming each other when we interact in various ways and society largely ignores this fact. There's no fucking way a 1-year old is reacting to something without there being some kind of conditioning at play. That's simply not possible. Children learn to communicate their needs going unmet first by crying. That's what babies are doing when they cry. Then, they learn to ask physically. Then verbally. I don't remember why I wrote this, but I'm keeping it because it's worth knowing. And anger is almost always a sign of deeper unmet emotional needs. Piling humiliation on top of it doesn't address the sadness, fear, frustration, or whatever that's built up into the anger. You speak of rebellion. Sounds like you want obedience. I'm not saying you do...just saying it sounds like it. Every being has a need for autonomy. It's a defining aspect of most life. If you want obedience, you're already seeking to deny that need. Rebellion is the emotionally immature reaction, when obedience isn't working for someone. The emotionally mature response is to bring in compassion for all parties and help the ones seeking to deny others' needs come to realize what's going on inside of them that's leading them to ignore the needs of others. Another thing about kids is they're WAY more easily programmed than adults are. And we have around the world many cultures that do not teach compromise, emotional connection, delayed gratification, mindfulness, or even wtf humans need to survive and thrive. And we have many education systems that don't even bother to address those issues. So why would I ever expect a young person to develop those skills without being born to or nurtured by extraordinary people/circumstances? As for the Inuit, from what I've read about cultures in harsh environments is that the need for gentleness becomes pretty fucking apparent pretty quick. The Inuit aren't simply gentle, though...they're emotionally connecting with their kids and respecting autonomy, so they're probably not experiencing much rebellion. I did a brief google search here to find some clarity and what I found was this, which suggests teenage rebellion isn't a human universal. This tracks with what I've read before. https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-blogs/149004-the-myth-of-teenage-rebellion.html https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-blogs/149004-the-my... I want to invite children to rebel against the school system, learn about compassion, and form roaming gangs in neighborhoods seeking to liberate more children and help more parents connect with their kids. Because the adult world as it stands is clearly out of alignment with nature and how the adults are handling it is clearly out of alignment with the needs of young people.