10 ms·

Leaving academia

34 points by vincentchau 5y ago

oneepic 5y ago
The grass is always greener...? On the flip side, I really don't like the tech industry. I'd love to try grad school, as a research career seems more fulfilling and helpful to humanity (compared to most companies) -- but I'm shy about getting rec letters, nor did I do any undergrad research.
- infocollector 5y ago
  It is fairly easy for a person in industry to go back to academia as a student. If you are serious - talk to a faculty member - and chart out a plan.
  - hazz99 5y ago
    Is this true? I’ve always felt “locked out” of any serious academic career as someone who, in their undergrad, focused on getting into industry rather than on research experience. What does that path look like?
    - tubby12345 5y ago
      it depends on what your skillset really is and what areas you're interested in for your phd. pure theory (finite automata, complexity, computational geometry, optimization)? yea you're probably locked out by virtue of competing against students that have the relevant theory fresher in their heads. note i didn't list ML there because i personally don't consider ML theory heavy (no matter what the wannbes will claim wrt to TDA or whatever). basically in any other area, if you have true hard skills (e.g., deep systems knowledge, networks, graphics) then you're competitive as long as you have a decent ugrad GPA and can get a decent GRE and some decent letters of rec. the path looks like reaching out to a potential advisor and starting a conversation with them about whatever research of theirs you find interesting.
      - tasogare 5y ago
        Yep. In my lab two people are doing a PhD while having left university for awhile and while still doing their job (teaching English).
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      Frist you'll have to find a researcher you want to work with. Go through all the schools you would apply to and look at the individual faculty pages. Reach out to them and mention your interest with specificity. I get a lot of cold e-mail with a generic "I've looked at your research and it is interesting to me." and those letters go right into the junk folder. You're most likely to get a reply from a PI who just landed a big grant. They will be flush with cash and in need of students. Departments like to trumpet when their faculty get these big grants, so you can monitor department pages and see who is getting grants. Then you can congratulate them and ask if they need any help, and if so you'd like to join their lab. I disagree with the sibling comment that you would ever be "locked out" of anything. You might not be getting in to the tippy-top programs as the competition there will be quite fierce, but there's so many programs I think you can find something somewhere. You don't even have to have that much relevant experience in the field. Some programs have catch-up coursework for students who are cross discipline. I did an undergrad in Physics and switched to a Ph.D. in Computer Science, and really didn't know much going in. So I wouldn't worry about being behind. And honestly, if you've been in industry a while you might have quite a leg up on 22 year-olds from a project and time management standpoint.
      - jrumbut 5y ago
        Having almost finished, it's not just possible it's relatively straightforward and not that uncommon. I didn't even have a good undergrad GPA. You do need an advisor with some imagination to leverage your skills and fill in gaps that most 22 year olds don't have.
    - bernulli 5y ago
      Excellent detailed advice by the others in this thread. Let me add what I think you can bring to the table: a track record in getting things done. The only thing a professor has less of than money is time. If you can convince a PI that you can implement stuff more reliably than ‘mere’ students, without having to be held by the hand all the time, that’s a winner.
    - keithwinstein 5y ago
      Couple of suggestions: - A lot of people have written really good advice about the application process; see https://blog.keithw.org/2016/02/stock-advice-for-undergraduates.html https://blog.keithw.org/2016/02/stock-advice-for-undergradua... for a compilation. - In the U.S., university faculty usually have substantial influence (and, depending on the department, sometimes close to "they 100% make the decision yes or no") on the PhD admissions decisions among applicants to their department's PhD program who name the faculty member in their application materials. So if you want to come and do a PhD as a "non-traditional" applicant, your real task is to have some faculty members decide they want to hire you as their student. - If you want to start doing research as a non-traditional applicant, the faculty member's main questions are likely to be things like, "What can this person do for me and my research group? Will this person be a net asset and a contributor of ideas and perspective and get-it-done-ness?", but... - The prospect of a "mature" PhD applicant can be tantalizing to a faculty member because (a) it's helpful to have people in a research group who have a different perspective and new ideas (about problems of interest, and ways to solve them), (b) older applicants might be assumed to be more mature and have better self-knowledge about what kind of environment they need around themselves to be happy/productive, and (c) applicants from the industry often have skills that are useful to a research group but not necessarily widespread in academia. - But... the PI may also wonder, "Is this person going to enjoy and survive in an unstructured research environment where they are my apprentice, but essentially their own boss most of the week, and they have to sustain their own motivation in a multi-year research project where success is uncertain and goals often shift?" or perhaps, "If this person was living on $300,000 a year in the industry, do they really want to come here and work for me as a doctoral student for $62,000 for 5-6 years, or are they going to leave and go back to industry when the going gets tough in year 3? Are they just coming here to meet people to form a startup with and I'll have wasted a year or two training them?" - Some of the ways to de-risk that person's hiring decision are to (a) get your foot in the door in research somehow -- this may require volunteering for free in a research group if you are already out of school, (b) demonstrate promise in research in that group by contributing to a project and ideally a paper submission, and (c) have the PI be able to write you strong letter of recommendation where they write something like, "X was always contributing new ideas and has a great deal of independence/resilience in the face of setbacks/creativity/brilliance/a unique perspective on problems. I would gladly take X as my own student! They remind me of a young [now accomplished researcher] when they were at a similar stage." This kind of letter will be persuasive with the PI's colleagues in the same subdiscipline at other universities, and if the PI really likes you, they will offer you admission as a PhD student at their own institution. Or, you could do something else awesome that demonstrates initiative and creativity and resilience and makes you an interesting applicant -- you don't necessarily have to work in a research lab, but it does make the decision easier. - For the love of God, please read the faculty member's own website before you email them. Do not send a long email that is all about yourself, your accomplishments, and your interests. Faculty members at well-known universities get tons of those emails. What's interesting to the recipient is usually some question about their work and their interests that provokes thought. If you have a good question about their work, ask it! If you have an idea for how their work might be extended or improved, you might ask if they know of somebody already working on that idea. Faculty members usually love talking about their work and engaging with people who seriously engage with them. - Other ideas for how to get a sense of what research is like and what you might be interested in (and meet people): attend talks at your local college or university (they are usually open to the public). Go to research conferences in your field of interest and listen to some talks and meet people in the hallways and poster sessions.
- goalieca 5y ago
  > I'd love to try grad school, as a research career seems more fulfilling and helpful to humanity (compared to most companies) Most research is done simply to publish. The methods don’t even really have to work outside of your small dataset. Call me jaded, but my peers used to idolize the geniuses in industry who built way more advanced stuff than we had been working on. Now I’m in industry and I’ve found a place that I feel does make the world a better place and I’m happier that my contributions matter.
  - andi999 5y ago
    Yes, the stuff applied/invented in industry has to work and generate a benifit. In academia I see it often that people stop after the proof of principle (which if the dataset is too small only appears to be a proof of principle)
- disambiguation 5y ago
  I'm in the same boat as you, tech industry with casual aspirations to rejoin academia. But I'm skeptical the grass is greener. Check out the "PhD grind". The author details his experience with how publishing papers in academia has become just as game-ified as tech is today (for a fraction of the compensation). https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15731248-the-ph-d-grind https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15731248-the-ph-d-grind
adnmcq999 5y ago
ModernMech 5y ago
The lure of industry is strong for academics, especially in CS. It's hard to pass up making my 2x or more in industry. But every time I think about making the switch, I find it really hard to put a value on what the author points out at the end: The freedom and unstructured time to explore fuzzy problems is unmatched. An assistant tenure-track professor in CS or CompE is going to make maybe $100k for 9 months of service, and really it's more like 30-32 weeks. I don't know any other job that gives you 6-figure salary and lets you basically do whatever* you want for 42% of the year. Is a 2x salary increase worth giving up that kind of time? For me I think It'd have to be a sum where I could retire much sooner, but what I would imagine myself doing in early retirement is the research I'm doing right now. I know a lot of people that made the same decision as this author, and they do report they miss the freedom of summer that academics get. * - you get 6 years or so to prove you've spent your time wisely.
- lapsedacademic 5y ago
  > It's hard to pass up making my 2x or more in industry. Austin's salary is public data, and I have a really good sample of what people like him make in industry. Try 5x. Before RSU appreciation. Maybe 3x. But 3x would imply a VERY chill industry position. "Name your interest space and we'll let you work on that" type of gig. Probably way more chill than academia. > The freedom and unstructured time to explore fuzzy problems is unmatched. Industry also provides this. Actually, I find much more freedom in industry than in academia. And, if we're honest, my industry position is probably at least as secure as a faculty position at a public university in a red state. > I don't know any other job that gives you 6-figure salary and lets you basically do whatever you want for 42% of the year. In industry research, you can't do whatever you want. But you can usually do what you want. In fact, the caveat of "prove your worth" is a huge tell. In industry, you REALLY CAN do what you want! Real freedom; just be useful. In academia you have "freedom". By which we mean "raise money". But even if not... look at it like this: an industry position that pays 5x allows you to work for a year and then take the next 4 off. 2/5 is bigger than 1/5. And that is time you can actually take off. To do whatever. Not "off" in the "better be writing grant proposals!" sense. Actually off. > Is a 2x salary increase worth giving up that kind of time? Probably not. But if you can land an R1 CS position in SE, you should be making closer to 5x.
kerneloftruth 5y ago
I can relate to what the author is saying. I stopped my PhD program after having completed all coursework, and right as I was beginning the work on my dissertation. I had a great pair of professors as my main advisors, who frankly asked "Why? Why are you pursuing this PhD?". My answer was that I felt that I would enjoy and thrive doing "pure research". Their feedback was very honest and frank: "but we hardly ever get to do any pure research". They went on about faculty politics, hours spent writing grant proposals, hustling to get published, ..., and how teaching students is actually a pain (if one really wanted to do research) after a relatively short time. That was 1993, and the exploding new world of opportunities in working on _actual_ distributed systems (my dissertation topic area) in the newly forming "Internet Era" were real and exciting. Those opportunities, juxtaposed with my advisors' depictions of academia, made the choice easier. I felt very grateful to get such honest insight. For years I wondered/worried if I would regret abandoning all the work I had done, and it felt uncomfortable having not finished a goal I had set. By 10 years after, though, I had no regrets or worries remaining.
avs733 5y ago
Honestly, you are going to see a LOT of this due to COVID. COVID hasn't been good to anyone but faculty are in a particularly difficult situation. Increasingly, they are made to feel responsible for their students' mental health and well being alongside increasing expectations around teaching, inevitably increasing expectations around research, ever more administrative nonsense, and ever more interference and being messed about with. Add in just he absolute sheer NOISE of doing anything - including trying to publish and it's just overwhelming. Honestly, if I leave academia - it will be HR that finally does it. I work at a university where the sheer incompetence of HR has effectively wrenched complete control away from anyone else.
- bglazer 5y ago
  Do you not feel responsibility for the mental health or well being of your students? I’m trying to interpret your comment charitably, so I hope I’m not misinterpreting.
  - syki 5y ago
    I teach at a college. I’m not in any way responsible for my students’ mental health or well being. That is far too much of a burden to have and I’m not paid nearly enough to take that on. Also, I have no training in mental health. The health care system is where one should go for mental health help.
    - avs733 5y ago
      I think people may read this as blunt and dismissive. I think its worth considering the poster's core thesis: You don't want us doing this job. If I spend 2-4 hours a week with 120 students it is really a lot to ask faculty (who are not trained) or dorm RAs (who are minimally trained) to be responsible for the enormous mental health challenges facing this generation. It is not reasonable, safe, or even possible.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - 5y ago
dovyski 5y ago
I am in the same position as the author: I have a tenure track in academia, a semi-decent work, and good feedback from peers/students. However, I never felt so miserable. I've been thinking about all the reasons why I should not quit. The "freedom" in Academia, helping society (or a few people in it), the grass being greener on the other side, the pandemic is exacerbating my thoughts, it's just burnout, and so on. I grow more convinced by the minute, particularly when I read that other share the same agonies (thanks for sharing this, author!). Industry is though in many aspects, but at least it's not a delusional bubble fueled by frustration as Academia is. If nothing else, Industry feels more real and with better chances of making me feel alive.
- glial 5y ago
  You are not alone...I found the 'quit lit' genre to be both comforting and tempting as a grad student, e.g. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/impactofsocialsciences/2021/08/18/reading-academic-quit-lit-how-and-why-precarious-scholars-leave-academia/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/impactofsocialsciences/2021/08/18/re...
- karmakurtisaani 5y ago
  I quit academia after my PhD. Now, working as a developer remotely I have no money stress, relaxed work schedule, relaxed colleagues, no need to write grant applications etc. I even have some time to study the same academic stuff I was doing before, but without the pressure. The only thing missing is the academic network for exchanging ideas. When I tell this to my friends still in academia, I can sense some envy, but also get this feeling that they are not comfortable with even entertaining the idea of getting out of academia.
ensan 5y ago
His research field is software engineering. Which is one of those fields where all the exciting and fun advancements happen in the industry, and the academic research is often quite boring and slow. Not to mention in terms of making money, you would be far better off in the industry than spending 6 years in hopes of getting a tenure.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  > His research field is software engineering I think this is really key. Unlike many computer science disciplines that really benefit from the academic environment (e.g. you can work on a problem for a long time without the constraints of business considerations), when your field is literally "how to best build software in a collaborative environment", the best place to really learn that is by building software in a collaborative environment. The tech giants even have large, focused research teams on how to improve their own software engineering processes.
- ketozhang 5y ago
  > Not to mention in terms of making money, you would be far better off in the industry than spending 6 years in hopes of getting a tenure. That's true for most technical fields in academia. A physics degree can land you a well paid job as a data analyst/scientist or in quantitative finance.
ashton314 5y ago
> The freedom and unstructured time to explore fuzzy problems is unmatched. This right here is probably one of the biggest reasons why I am planning on academia. From the little time that I have spent in industry (working alongside a bachelors degree) I have always felt a little unsatisfied when we just had to ship something without exploring the outer edges of a problem. I would really like to experience working on problems so thoroughly in ways that industry usually can’t afford to do. Plus, I think I will enjoy teaching. There’s nothing like seeing a lightbulb turn on in somebody’s head after you have explained something to them.
- twblalock 5y ago
  Industry has research jobs too.
- ketozhang 5y ago
  Just don't forget, this does not mean you don't have deadlines. On top of deadlines, you have the cultural pressure of publishing.
ntnsndr 5y ago
Have seen both sides of this. I quit grad school to work, and was much happier having done so, and then returned to teach years later and was much happier than before. A few things: * There should be much more tolerance for going back and forth. I find many colleagues who have only been academics feel a frustration I don't have, rooted in an over-identification with what the guild thinks of them. When you've had some success in other contexts, it is easier to appreciate the guild and take its excesses with a grain of salt. * This stuff isn't for everybody. I realized I love this job because, given the choice, I would rather hide and write a paper than build a company or a product or offer a service. Thank Goodness most people in the world aren't like that, we would be screwed. I am hugely grateful for my non-academic collaborators who are not like that. It should be perfectly respectable to get an advanced degree, if you want, and then peace out. (That said, lots of people who are natural scholars get treated as if they don't belong because of their identity, background, etc. So it is not enough to simply assume the people who are in these roles are those who should or could be.) Leaving that first time was a moment of great joy for me. I celebrate with those who leave, just as I am grateful I found my way back.
_skel 5y ago
I know several people who left academia after achieving various levels of rank (grad student, postdoc, professor, etc.) and their thought processes were all similar. They all eventually wished they had left sooner, and what held them back was a misguided notion about what the outside world would think of them, because they were judging themselves by the standards of academia rather than by the standards of the outside world. Some of them were amazed that nobody cared about certain aspects of academia. Things they felt incredibly stressed or embarrassed about, like failing to complete some research or publish, or failing to get tenure, simply didn't matter at all in the outside world. When you are on the inside, the academic culture becomes your entire life. It seems like it's all that matters. After you leave, you'll find out that nobody on the outside knew or cared. In terms of an insular subculture with its own reality, I can't think of much else that compares, other than maybe the military, or prison gangs.
Kyragem 5y ago
Don't do it!!!! Based on my personal experiences, you will regret this. I was a tenure track faculty, got tenure, then I also go the industry itch. Fortunately was given the opportunity to to spend my sabbatical at Google Research, which was insightful, but I was very glad to return to academia knowing that I couldn't last a day longer in industry. Being stuck in a cubicle with 3 other engineers having to attend meeting after meeting working on things that did not interest me the least. 1.5 hours lunches while being stuck on that campus from like 7 to 7 and I was bored out of my skull. Academia offers unlimited freedom, a freedom that you will only value when being stuck working from 9-5 job on someone else's ideas instead of your own. For me, pursuing my own research at my own pace is the ultimate motivation and I simply can't be bothered working on projects whose only goal is to make money. Working with students and seeing them grown is also very rewarding. I will never leave academia.
- raphlinus 5y ago
  I vouched for your comment but suffice it to say it doesn't match my experience. Being on the right team and having the right project makes a lot of difference. Way too many meetings is definitely a common problem at Google but you also don't have to be completely passive and helpless about it either. In any case, glad you have found your niche in academia! Working with students is indeed rewarding - I've gotten to do some through Summer of Code, but academia is definitely a better place if that's your passion.

34 points by vincentchau 5y ago

The grass is always greener...? On the flip side, I really don't like the tech industry. I'd love to try grad school, as a research career seems more fulfilling and helpful to humanity (compared to most companies) -- but I'm shy about getting rec letters, nor did I do any undergrad research.

infocollector 5y ago
It is fairly easy for a person in industry to go back to academia as a student. If you are serious - talk to a faculty member - and chart out a plan.
- hazz99 5y ago
  Is this true? I’ve always felt “locked out” of any serious academic career as someone who, in their undergrad, focused on getting into industry rather than on research experience. What does that path look like?
  - tubby12345 5y ago
    it depends on what your skillset really is and what areas you're interested in for your phd. pure theory (finite automata, complexity, computational geometry, optimization)? yea you're probably locked out by virtue of competing against students that have the relevant theory fresher in their heads. note i didn't list ML there because i personally don't consider ML theory heavy (no matter what the wannbes will claim wrt to TDA or whatever). basically in any other area, if you have true hard skills (e.g., deep systems knowledge, networks, graphics) then you're competitive as long as you have a decent ugrad GPA and can get a decent GRE and some decent letters of rec. the path looks like reaching out to a potential advisor and starting a conversation with them about whatever research of theirs you find interesting.
    - tasogare 5y ago
      Yep. In my lab two people are doing a PhD while having left university for awhile and while still doing their job (teaching English).
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    Frist you'll have to find a researcher you want to work with. Go through all the schools you would apply to and look at the individual faculty pages. Reach out to them and mention your interest with specificity. I get a lot of cold e-mail with a generic "I've looked at your research and it is interesting to me." and those letters go right into the junk folder. You're most likely to get a reply from a PI who just landed a big grant. They will be flush with cash and in need of students. Departments like to trumpet when their faculty get these big grants, so you can monitor department pages and see who is getting grants. Then you can congratulate them and ask if they need any help, and if so you'd like to join their lab. I disagree with the sibling comment that you would ever be "locked out" of anything. You might not be getting in to the tippy-top programs as the competition there will be quite fierce, but there's so many programs I think you can find something somewhere. You don't even have to have that much relevant experience in the field. Some programs have catch-up coursework for students who are cross discipline. I did an undergrad in Physics and switched to a Ph.D. in Computer Science, and really didn't know much going in. So I wouldn't worry about being behind. And honestly, if you've been in industry a while you might have quite a leg up on 22 year-olds from a project and time management standpoint.
    - jrumbut 5y ago
      Having almost finished, it's not just possible it's relatively straightforward and not that uncommon. I didn't even have a good undergrad GPA. You do need an advisor with some imagination to leverage your skills and fill in gaps that most 22 year olds don't have.
  - bernulli 5y ago
    Excellent detailed advice by the others in this thread. Let me add what I think you can bring to the table: a track record in getting things done. The only thing a professor has less of than money is time. If you can convince a PI that you can implement stuff more reliably than ‘mere’ students, without having to be held by the hand all the time, that’s a winner.
  - keithwinstein 5y ago
    Couple of suggestions: - A lot of people have written really good advice about the application process; see https://blog.keithw.org/2016/02/stock-advice-for-undergraduates.html https://blog.keithw.org/2016/02/stock-advice-for-undergradua... for a compilation. - In the U.S., university faculty usually have substantial influence (and, depending on the department, sometimes close to "they 100% make the decision yes or no") on the PhD admissions decisions among applicants to their department's PhD program who name the faculty member in their application materials. So if you want to come and do a PhD as a "non-traditional" applicant, your real task is to have some faculty members decide they want to hire you as their student. - If you want to start doing research as a non-traditional applicant, the faculty member's main questions are likely to be things like, "What can this person do for me and my research group? Will this person be a net asset and a contributor of ideas and perspective and get-it-done-ness?", but... - The prospect of a "mature" PhD applicant can be tantalizing to a faculty member because (a) it's helpful to have people in a research group who have a different perspective and new ideas (about problems of interest, and ways to solve them), (b) older applicants might be assumed to be more mature and have better self-knowledge about what kind of environment they need around themselves to be happy/productive, and (c) applicants from the industry often have skills that are useful to a research group but not necessarily widespread in academia. - But... the PI may also wonder, "Is this person going to enjoy and survive in an unstructured research environment where they are my apprentice, but essentially their own boss most of the week, and they have to sustain their own motivation in a multi-year research project where success is uncertain and goals often shift?" or perhaps, "If this person was living on $300,000 a year in the industry, do they really want to come here and work for me as a doctoral student for $62,000 for 5-6 years, or are they going to leave and go back to industry when the going gets tough in year 3? Are they just coming here to meet people to form a startup with and I'll have wasted a year or two training them?" - Some of the ways to de-risk that person's hiring decision are to (a) get your foot in the door in research somehow -- this may require volunteering for free in a research group if you are already out of school, (b) demonstrate promise in research in that group by contributing to a project and ideally a paper submission, and (c) have the PI be able to write you strong letter of recommendation where they write something like, "X was always contributing new ideas and has a great deal of independence/resilience in the face of setbacks/creativity/brilliance/a unique perspective on problems. I would gladly take X as my own student! They remind me of a young [now accomplished researcher] when they were at a similar stage." This kind of letter will be persuasive with the PI's colleagues in the same subdiscipline at other universities, and if the PI really likes you, they will offer you admission as a PhD student at their own institution. Or, you could do something else awesome that demonstrates initiative and creativity and resilience and makes you an interesting applicant -- you don't necessarily have to work in a research lab, but it does make the decision easier. - For the love of God, please read the faculty member's own website before you email them. Do not send a long email that is all about yourself, your accomplishments, and your interests. Faculty members at well-known universities get tons of those emails. What's interesting to the recipient is usually some question about their work and their interests that provokes thought. If you have a good question about their work, ask it! If you have an idea for how their work might be extended or improved, you might ask if they know of somebody already working on that idea. Faculty members usually love talking about their work and engaging with people who seriously engage with them. - Other ideas for how to get a sense of what research is like and what you might be interested in (and meet people): attend talks at your local college or university (they are usually open to the public). Go to research conferences in your field of interest and listen to some talks and meet people in the hallways and poster sessions.
goalieca 5y ago
> I'd love to try grad school, as a research career seems more fulfilling and helpful to humanity (compared to most companies) Most research is done simply to publish. The methods don’t even really have to work outside of your small dataset. Call me jaded, but my peers used to idolize the geniuses in industry who built way more advanced stuff than we had been working on. Now I’m in industry and I’ve found a place that I feel does make the world a better place and I’m happier that my contributions matter.
- andi999 5y ago
  Yes, the stuff applied/invented in industry has to work and generate a benifit. In academia I see it often that people stop after the proof of principle (which if the dataset is too small only appears to be a proof of principle)
disambiguation 5y ago
I'm in the same boat as you, tech industry with casual aspirations to rejoin academia. But I'm skeptical the grass is greener. Check out the "PhD grind". The author details his experience with how publishing papers in academia has become just as game-ified as tech is today (for a fraction of the compensation). https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15731248-the-ph-d-grind https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15731248-the-ph-d-grind

adnmcq999 5y ago

ModernMech 5y ago

The lure of industry is strong for academics, especially in CS. It's hard to pass up making my 2x or more in industry. But every time I think about making the switch, I find it really hard to put a value on what the author points out at the end: The freedom and unstructured time to explore fuzzy problems is unmatched. An assistant tenure-track professor in CS or CompE is going to make maybe $100k for 9 months of service, and really it's more like 30-32 weeks. I don't know any other job that gives you 6-figure salary and lets you basically do whatever* you want for 42% of the year. Is a 2x salary increase worth giving up that kind of time? For me I think It'd have to be a sum where I could retire much sooner, but what I would imagine myself doing in early retirement is the research I'm doing right now. I know a lot of people that made the same decision as this author, and they do report they miss the freedom of summer that academics get. * - you get 6 years or so to prove you've spent your time wisely.

lapsedacademic 5y ago
> It's hard to pass up making my 2x or more in industry. Austin's salary is public data, and I have a really good sample of what people like him make in industry. Try 5x. Before RSU appreciation. Maybe 3x. But 3x would imply a VERY chill industry position. "Name your interest space and we'll let you work on that" type of gig. Probably way more chill than academia. > The freedom and unstructured time to explore fuzzy problems is unmatched. Industry also provides this. Actually, I find much more freedom in industry than in academia. And, if we're honest, my industry position is probably at least as secure as a faculty position at a public university in a red state. > I don't know any other job that gives you 6-figure salary and lets you basically do whatever you want for 42% of the year. In industry research, you can't do whatever you want. But you can usually do what you want. In fact, the caveat of "prove your worth" is a huge tell. In industry, you REALLY CAN do what you want! Real freedom; just be useful. In academia you have "freedom". By which we mean "raise money". But even if not... look at it like this: an industry position that pays 5x allows you to work for a year and then take the next 4 off. 2/5 is bigger than 1/5. And that is time you can actually take off. To do whatever. Not "off" in the "better be writing grant proposals!" sense. Actually off. > Is a 2x salary increase worth giving up that kind of time? Probably not. But if you can land an R1 CS position in SE, you should be making closer to 5x.

kerneloftruth 5y ago

I can relate to what the author is saying. I stopped my PhD program after having completed all coursework, and right as I was beginning the work on my dissertation. I had a great pair of professors as my main advisors, who frankly asked "Why? Why are you pursuing this PhD?". My answer was that I felt that I would enjoy and thrive doing "pure research". Their feedback was very honest and frank: "but we hardly ever get to do any pure research". They went on about faculty politics, hours spent writing grant proposals, hustling to get published, ..., and how teaching students is actually a pain (if one really wanted to do research) after a relatively short time. That was 1993, and the exploding new world of opportunities in working on _actual_ distributed systems (my dissertation topic area) in the newly forming "Internet Era" were real and exciting. Those opportunities, juxtaposed with my advisors' depictions of academia, made the choice easier. I felt very grateful to get such honest insight. For years I wondered/worried if I would regret abandoning all the work I had done, and it felt uncomfortable having not finished a goal I had set. By 10 years after, though, I had no regrets or worries remaining.

avs733 5y ago

Honestly, you are going to see a LOT of this due to COVID. COVID hasn't been good to anyone but faculty are in a particularly difficult situation. Increasingly, they are made to feel responsible for their students' mental health and well being alongside increasing expectations around teaching, inevitably increasing expectations around research, ever more administrative nonsense, and ever more interference and being messed about with. Add in just he absolute sheer NOISE of doing anything - including trying to publish and it's just overwhelming. Honestly, if I leave academia - it will be HR that finally does it. I work at a university where the sheer incompetence of HR has effectively wrenched complete control away from anyone else.

bglazer 5y ago
Do you not feel responsibility for the mental health or well being of your students? I’m trying to interpret your comment charitably, so I hope I’m not misinterpreting.
- syki 5y ago
  I teach at a college. I’m not in any way responsible for my students’ mental health or well being. That is far too much of a burden to have and I’m not paid nearly enough to take that on. Also, I have no training in mental health. The health care system is where one should go for mental health help.
  - avs733 5y ago
    I think people may read this as blunt and dismissive. I think its worth considering the poster's core thesis: You don't want us doing this job. If I spend 2-4 hours a week with 120 students it is really a lot to ask faculty (who are not trained) or dorm RAs (who are minimally trained) to be responsible for the enormous mental health challenges facing this generation. It is not reasonable, safe, or even possible.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- 5y ago

dovyski 5y ago

I am in the same position as the author: I have a tenure track in academia, a semi-decent work, and good feedback from peers/students. However, I never felt so miserable. I've been thinking about all the reasons why I should not quit. The "freedom" in Academia, helping society (or a few people in it), the grass being greener on the other side, the pandemic is exacerbating my thoughts, it's just burnout, and so on. I grow more convinced by the minute, particularly when I read that other share the same agonies (thanks for sharing this, author!). Industry is though in many aspects, but at least it's not a delusional bubble fueled by frustration as Academia is. If nothing else, Industry feels more real and with better chances of making me feel alive.

glial 5y ago
You are not alone...I found the 'quit lit' genre to be both comforting and tempting as a grad student, e.g. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/impactofsocialsciences/2021/08/18/reading-academic-quit-lit-how-and-why-precarious-scholars-leave-academia/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/impactofsocialsciences/2021/08/18/re...
karmakurtisaani 5y ago
I quit academia after my PhD. Now, working as a developer remotely I have no money stress, relaxed work schedule, relaxed colleagues, no need to write grant applications etc. I even have some time to study the same academic stuff I was doing before, but without the pressure. The only thing missing is the academic network for exchanging ideas. When I tell this to my friends still in academia, I can sense some envy, but also get this feeling that they are not comfortable with even entertaining the idea of getting out of academia.

ensan 5y ago

His research field is software engineering. Which is one of those fields where all the exciting and fun advancements happen in the industry, and the academic research is often quite boring and slow. Not to mention in terms of making money, you would be far better off in the industry than spending 6 years in hopes of getting a tenure.

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
> His research field is software engineering I think this is really key. Unlike many computer science disciplines that really benefit from the academic environment (e.g. you can work on a problem for a long time without the constraints of business considerations), when your field is literally "how to best build software in a collaborative environment", the best place to really learn that is by building software in a collaborative environment. The tech giants even have large, focused research teams on how to improve their own software engineering processes.
ketozhang 5y ago
> Not to mention in terms of making money, you would be far better off in the industry than spending 6 years in hopes of getting a tenure. That's true for most technical fields in academia. A physics degree can land you a well paid job as a data analyst/scientist or in quantitative finance.

ashton314 5y ago

> The freedom and unstructured time to explore fuzzy problems is unmatched. This right here is probably one of the biggest reasons why I am planning on academia. From the little time that I have spent in industry (working alongside a bachelors degree) I have always felt a little unsatisfied when we just had to ship something without exploring the outer edges of a problem. I would really like to experience working on problems so thoroughly in ways that industry usually can’t afford to do. Plus, I think I will enjoy teaching. There’s nothing like seeing a lightbulb turn on in somebody’s head after you have explained something to them.

twblalock 5y ago
Industry has research jobs too.
ketozhang 5y ago
Just don't forget, this does not mean you don't have deadlines. On top of deadlines, you have the cultural pressure of publishing.

ntnsndr 5y ago

Have seen both sides of this. I quit grad school to work, and was much happier having done so, and then returned to teach years later and was much happier than before. A few things: * There should be much more tolerance for going back and forth. I find many colleagues who have only been academics feel a frustration I don't have, rooted in an over-identification with what the guild thinks of them. When you've had some success in other contexts, it is easier to appreciate the guild and take its excesses with a grain of salt. * This stuff isn't for everybody. I realized I love this job because, given the choice, I would rather hide and write a paper than build a company or a product or offer a service. Thank Goodness most people in the world aren't like that, we would be screwed. I am hugely grateful for my non-academic collaborators who are not like that. It should be perfectly respectable to get an advanced degree, if you want, and then peace out. (That said, lots of people who are natural scholars get treated as if they don't belong because of their identity, background, etc. So it is not enough to simply assume the people who are in these roles are those who should or could be.) Leaving that first time was a moment of great joy for me. I celebrate with those who leave, just as I am grateful I found my way back.

_skel 5y ago

I know several people who left academia after achieving various levels of rank (grad student, postdoc, professor, etc.) and their thought processes were all similar. They all eventually wished they had left sooner, and what held them back was a misguided notion about what the outside world would think of them, because they were judging themselves by the standards of academia rather than by the standards of the outside world. Some of them were amazed that nobody cared about certain aspects of academia. Things they felt incredibly stressed or embarrassed about, like failing to complete some research or publish, or failing to get tenure, simply didn't matter at all in the outside world. When you are on the inside, the academic culture becomes your entire life. It seems like it's all that matters. After you leave, you'll find out that nobody on the outside knew or cared. In terms of an insular subculture with its own reality, I can't think of much else that compares, other than maybe the military, or prison gangs.

Kyragem 5y ago

Don't do it!!!! Based on my personal experiences, you will regret this. I was a tenure track faculty, got tenure, then I also go the industry itch. Fortunately was given the opportunity to to spend my sabbatical at Google Research, which was insightful, but I was very glad to return to academia knowing that I couldn't last a day longer in industry. Being stuck in a cubicle with 3 other engineers having to attend meeting after meeting working on things that did not interest me the least. 1.5 hours lunches while being stuck on that campus from like 7 to 7 and I was bored out of my skull. Academia offers unlimited freedom, a freedom that you will only value when being stuck working from 9-5 job on someone else's ideas instead of your own. For me, pursuing my own research at my own pace is the ultimate motivation and I simply can't be bothered working on projects whose only goal is to make money. Working with students and seeing them grown is also very rewarding. I will never leave academia.

raphlinus 5y ago
I vouched for your comment but suffice it to say it doesn't match my experience. Being on the right team and having the right project makes a lot of difference. Way too many meetings is definitely a common problem at Google but you also don't have to be completely passive and helpless about it either. In any case, glad you have found your niche in academia! Working with students is indeed rewarding - I've gotten to do some through Summer of Code, but academia is definitely a better place if that's your passion.