5 ms·

Yes it brings up uncomfortable questions about free will. Like “why did he murder that guy? did he choose to do it or did the chemicals in his brain force him t

Yes it brings up uncomfortable questions about free will. Like “why did he murder that guy? did he choose to do it or did the chemicals in his brain force him to?”

zwkrt 5y ago
“Your honor, I claim that the real culprit here is the laws of physics and the initial conditions of the universe at the Big Bang.”
- GuB-42 5y ago
  Unfortunately for you the same laws of physics and initial conditions created prisons and you are about to get entangled.
n8cpdx 5y ago
Uncomfortable questions indeed. It is honestly hard to comprehend how people believe in it at all. I understand that people do, but it’s mystifying, like a belief in god or even Santa Claus. Regardless, justice systems (incentives and accountability) and incarceration (incentives, and ideally rehabilitation) have nothing to do with free will. Any connection between free will (presence or absence) and the justice system seems to stems from some weird idea that it is about “punishing bad guys” or balancing some cosmic ledger. It is not. It is about controlling people just enough to ensure the long-term maintenance of society, as imperfect as our current implementation is. Look up Restorative Justice for approaches that focus on restorative outcomes for all involved, eschewing punishment and eye-for-eye thinking. The cancerous cell does not carry any moral value; and neither does the immune system that destroys it. The cell infected by a virus is a victim of its circumstance, but that does not mean the immune system is should not destroy it.
- azth 5y ago
  It's actually hard and absurd not to believe in a Creator.
  - n8cpdx 5y ago
    Who is the Creator’s creator? If you can accept that the Creator came into being and created the universe, you can skip a step and just say the universe came into being.
    - azth 5y ago
      It's an ill formed question. By definition, the Creator exists outsides the realms of His creation, and thus, is not bound by its laws.
cblconfederate 5y ago
Until we have effective behavior-altering treatments that 'correct' people we have to insist on personal responsibility so that they can be put in prison.
- adjkant 5y ago
  I think you've missed a step jumping straight to prison. If you accept a lack of free will, the solution does not need to immediately jump there but rather to finding a way that is fair to all to prevent the bad behavior thing from affecting others negatively while not locking someone up in a cage. There are many lines in between and some penal systems have adapted, but the US is way far behind there. The optimization is no longer about revenge / punishment but about altering the scenario of the world to make everyone work together better. Sometimes people need to be fully separated from society, but not often. I think we do have effective behavior altering treatments, but they just aren't drugs and take time. But it's not a straight line from "it takes time to help people and its unreliable" to "we're giving up on finding a way for society to work with the people who did not choose what they are".
- guerrilla 5y ago
  We need to not only correct people but environments. The people themselves only contain half the conditions that lead to their behavior, their environments contain the other half.
guerrilla 5y ago
This is why we should think in terms of problem solving rather than "responsibility" in the traditional sense and punishment. The person is "responsible" in the sense that it was their body (i.e. them) that did the crime but that doesn't actually tell us anything. If the point is to prevent further such crimes then the conditions that caused it have to be prevented in some way or another. That's the original problem that retribution (and it's later reforms) was solving.

Yes it brings up uncomfortable questions about free will. Like “why did he murder that guy? did he choose to do it or did the chemicals in his brain force him to?”

zwkrt 5y ago

“Your honor, I claim that the real culprit here is the laws of physics and the initial conditions of the universe at the Big Bang.”

GuB-42 5y ago
Unfortunately for you the same laws of physics and initial conditions created prisons and you are about to get entangled.

n8cpdx 5y ago

Uncomfortable questions indeed. It is honestly hard to comprehend how people believe in it at all. I understand that people do, but it’s mystifying, like a belief in god or even Santa Claus. Regardless, justice systems (incentives and accountability) and incarceration (incentives, and ideally rehabilitation) have nothing to do with free will. Any connection between free will (presence or absence) and the justice system seems to stems from some weird idea that it is about “punishing bad guys” or balancing some cosmic ledger. It is not. It is about controlling people just enough to ensure the long-term maintenance of society, as imperfect as our current implementation is. Look up Restorative Justice for approaches that focus on restorative outcomes for all involved, eschewing punishment and eye-for-eye thinking. The cancerous cell does not carry any moral value; and neither does the immune system that destroys it. The cell infected by a virus is a victim of its circumstance, but that does not mean the immune system is should not destroy it.

azth 5y ago
It's actually hard and absurd not to believe in a Creator.
- n8cpdx 5y ago
  Who is the Creator’s creator? If you can accept that the Creator came into being and created the universe, you can skip a step and just say the universe came into being.
  - azth 5y ago
    It's an ill formed question. By definition, the Creator exists outsides the realms of His creation, and thus, is not bound by its laws.

cblconfederate 5y ago

Until we have effective behavior-altering treatments that 'correct' people we have to insist on personal responsibility so that they can be put in prison.

adjkant 5y ago
I think you've missed a step jumping straight to prison. If you accept a lack of free will, the solution does not need to immediately jump there but rather to finding a way that is fair to all to prevent the bad behavior thing from affecting others negatively while not locking someone up in a cage. There are many lines in between and some penal systems have adapted, but the US is way far behind there. The optimization is no longer about revenge / punishment but about altering the scenario of the world to make everyone work together better. Sometimes people need to be fully separated from society, but not often. I think we do have effective behavior altering treatments, but they just aren't drugs and take time. But it's not a straight line from "it takes time to help people and its unreliable" to "we're giving up on finding a way for society to work with the people who did not choose what they are".
guerrilla 5y ago
We need to not only correct people but environments. The people themselves only contain half the conditions that lead to their behavior, their environments contain the other half.

guerrilla 5y ago

This is why we should think in terms of problem solving rather than "responsibility" in the traditional sense and punishment. The person is "responsible" in the sense that it was their body (i.e. them) that did the crime but that doesn't actually tell us anything. If the point is to prevent further such crimes then the conditions that caused it have to be prevented in some way or another. That's the original problem that retribution (and it's later reforms) was solving.