5 ms·

A common trap: We want amazing programmers, and we pay them slightly better than average. I'm good at what I do, and I aim for more than "a little better than

by ekidd 15y ago

A common trap: We want amazing programmers, and we pay them slightly better than average. I'm good at what I do, and I aim for more than "a little better than someone with your same job in your geographical area." Some of the most amazing consultants I know charge far above their local market average. And I'm always happy to write them checks, because they're amazing programmers, and they would be a steal at 5 times the typical market rate.

tptacek 15y ago
Comparing consultant comp to full time salary is an apples/oranges comparison, as is the sort-of "second derivative" comparison of (a) how different consultants set their comp relative to each other and (b) how full time developers set their comp relative to each other. The mechanics by which a consultants comp are set are just wildly different from how full time salary is worked out.
balsamiq 15y ago
With our formula, the job category to compare these people with would be "amazing consultants", not average consultant. In other words, these people are very senior. No?
- mseebach 15y ago
  Amazing people don't travel in homogeneous pools whose salaries can be averaged out meaningfully. Finding these people is hard enough, finding out what they would get offered down the street is harder yet.
- kamaal 15y ago
  What has being senior got to do with quality of work delivered? Sure experience counts for some thing. But measuring someone's worth by looking number of years on the resume seems to be a bad metric for hiring. I generally put in twice the effort as a my boss on almost daily basis, I expect to be what he is now in half the time he took to be. Why not just flatly pay them on the amount of work done, regardless where(location) they work.
  - danmaz74 15y ago
    And how do you measure the amount of work done? Lines Of Code (haha)? Function points? Hours? The grim reality is that there is just no meaningful way to objectively measure the "amount of work done" by coders and the likes.
- rscale 15y ago
  Let's take this from the realm of the abstract to the concrete: Let's imagine an absolutely top-notch consultant with excellent hard and soft skills that mesh nearly perfectly with your current and projected needs. How much would you offer them if they lived in NYC, Detroit, or San Juan, PR?
  - balsamiq 15y ago
    Hi rscale don't take this the wrong way but it would take me a couple of hours to do this research (plus I would do it with the consultant, who knows their local market way better than me), and I don't have the time right now...getting flooded with comments here, plus I actually have work to do. :)
- ekidd 15y ago
  Seniority does not, in my experience, correlate with productivity. The programmer I most want to hire has the job title "intern", and he will be hired straight into a major tech company at a princely salary. He'll be worth it, too. I've interviewed enough programmers to know that the average talent level is absurdly low. But there are amazing people out there, at every level of seniority, who do 5 times more work than average, and keep doing it. If you pay only a "little bit" more than market rates, you'll lose these people late in the hiring process, when they take an offer for 40% more at another company.
  - balsamiq 15y ago
    I meant "senior" as in "more capable", not tied to years worked. Sorry ESL here.
nadam 15y ago
Could you provide an example what such an amazing programmer knows? In my experience beyond a level employers cannot even measure your knowledge, because that would require them to be really good at what you know best. If you are an extremely good developer, you can get a job at Google or at a similar company, and you will receive slightly better than average compensation. But getting 5x market rate? Being a good programmer is not enough for that I think, no matter how good you are (unless you built something truly special, like solving NP problems in P.:)). You have to build up your personal 'brand' for that I am afraid. Edit: I am really curious who are those extremely smart programmers. Guys on the top of this list? http://community.topcoder.com/tc?module=AlgoRank http://community.topcoder.com/tc?module=AlgoRank Or guys who were at the top of the Netflix prize top scores list? Those are some truly gifted guys (one in a million caliber), but even most of them don't earn 5x market rate.
- secoif 15y ago
  You don't need provide 5x to the value, you just need to convince the employer you are. Also, much of a programmer's worth pays off over time: specifically how easy is it to maintain their code? Writing truly maintainable code is HARD and difficult to quantify.
  - nadam 15y ago
    "you just need to convince the employer you are." Yes, and I think you cannot convince them on a standard job interview. A job interview is like this: you solved the problems we gave you, congratulations, we hired you (for slightly more than market rate). They will not give you harder and harder inteview questions and finally give you 5x market salary in my experience. Earning 5x market rate is not only about capabilities but more about building a very interesting track record, personal brand, which helps you differentiate yourself and helps you convince clients about your value. It is a bit like a long-term strategy game.
    - secoif 15y ago
      This is especially true if they are hiring via recruitment agency.

by ekidd 15y ago

tptacek 15y ago

Comparing consultant comp to full time salary is an apples/oranges comparison, as is the sort-of "second derivative" comparison of (a) how different consultants set their comp relative to each other and (b) how full time developers set their comp relative to each other. The mechanics by which a consultants comp are set are just wildly different from how full time salary is worked out.

balsamiq 15y ago

With our formula, the job category to compare these people with would be "amazing consultants", not average consultant. In other words, these people are very senior. No?

mseebach 15y ago
Amazing people don't travel in homogeneous pools whose salaries can be averaged out meaningfully. Finding these people is hard enough, finding out what they would get offered down the street is harder yet.
kamaal 15y ago
What has being senior got to do with quality of work delivered? Sure experience counts for some thing. But measuring someone's worth by looking number of years on the resume seems to be a bad metric for hiring. I generally put in twice the effort as a my boss on almost daily basis, I expect to be what he is now in half the time he took to be. Why not just flatly pay them on the amount of work done, regardless where(location) they work.
- danmaz74 15y ago
  And how do you measure the amount of work done? Lines Of Code (haha)? Function points? Hours? The grim reality is that there is just no meaningful way to objectively measure the "amount of work done" by coders and the likes.
rscale 15y ago
Let's take this from the realm of the abstract to the concrete: Let's imagine an absolutely top-notch consultant with excellent hard and soft skills that mesh nearly perfectly with your current and projected needs. How much would you offer them if they lived in NYC, Detroit, or San Juan, PR?
- balsamiq 15y ago
  Hi rscale don't take this the wrong way but it would take me a couple of hours to do this research (plus I would do it with the consultant, who knows their local market way better than me), and I don't have the time right now...getting flooded with comments here, plus I actually have work to do. :)
ekidd 15y ago
Seniority does not, in my experience, correlate with productivity. The programmer I most want to hire has the job title "intern", and he will be hired straight into a major tech company at a princely salary. He'll be worth it, too. I've interviewed enough programmers to know that the average talent level is absurdly low. But there are amazing people out there, at every level of seniority, who do 5 times more work than average, and keep doing it. If you pay only a "little bit" more than market rates, you'll lose these people late in the hiring process, when they take an offer for 40% more at another company.
- balsamiq 15y ago
  I meant "senior" as in "more capable", not tied to years worked. Sorry ESL here.

nadam 15y ago

Could you provide an example what such an amazing programmer knows? In my experience beyond a level employers cannot even measure your knowledge, because that would require them to be really good at what you know best. If you are an extremely good developer, you can get a job at Google or at a similar company, and you will receive slightly better than average compensation. But getting 5x market rate? Being a good programmer is not enough for that I think, no matter how good you are (unless you built something truly special, like solving NP problems in P.:)). You have to build up your personal 'brand' for that I am afraid. Edit: I am really curious who are those extremely smart programmers. Guys on the top of this list? http://community.topcoder.com/tc?module=AlgoRank http://community.topcoder.com/tc?module=AlgoRank Or guys who were at the top of the Netflix prize top scores list? Those are some truly gifted guys (one in a million caliber), but even most of them don't earn 5x market rate.

secoif 15y ago
You don't need provide 5x to the value, you just need to convince the employer you are. Also, much of a programmer's worth pays off over time: specifically how easy is it to maintain their code? Writing truly maintainable code is HARD and difficult to quantify.
- nadam 15y ago
  "you just need to convince the employer you are." Yes, and I think you cannot convince them on a standard job interview. A job interview is like this: you solved the problems we gave you, congratulations, we hired you (for slightly more than market rate). They will not give you harder and harder inteview questions and finally give you 5x market salary in my experience. Earning 5x market rate is not only about capabilities but more about building a very interesting track record, personal brand, which helps you differentiate yourself and helps you convince clients about your value. It is a bit like a long-term strategy game.
  - secoif 15y ago
    This is especially true if they are hiring via recruitment agency.