5 ms·

Not ANY wrongdoing... Despite Air Canada cancelling the flight (we didn't cancel our tickets), despite a public campaign waged to get them to refund passengers

by MWil 5y ago

Not ANY wrongdoing... Despite Air Canada cancelling the flight (we didn't cancel our tickets), despite a public campaign waged to get them to refund passengers, despite the US Department of Transportation fining them $25 million (reduced to $2 million because US gov't), despite Air Canada changing their public website multiple times (I saved screenshots to include "we will fully refund") but then not actually allowing your ticket to be processed, despite me submitting DOZENS of responses to Chase for clarification on why all of this is wrong of Air Canada... Chase: "I'm sorry, if they don't want to refund you, even if they said they would, there's nothing we can do." https://viewfromthewing.com/dot-issues-largest-fine-ever-against-air-canada-for-stealing-customer-money/ https://viewfromthewing.com/dot-issues-largest-fine-ever-aga...

user_7832 5y ago
Have you thought of going to consumer court? Either that, or a class action lawsuit (if multiple people can group together) should definitely help you see your money. You might also be able to find a lawyer pro-bono as the case is clear cut in your favor (and charge for legal fees in the compensation).
hedora 5y ago
Odd. Did you use the magic phrase: “I need to issue a chargeback. They charged my card for services not rendered. I called their number to contest it and they did not issue a refund.” That (or “they charged my card but did not send the product”) has worked 100% of the time for me. I’ve never provided documentation beyond that. Chase has a strong financial incentive to issue the chargeback (Air Canada ends up paying Chase a fine), and it’s no sweat off Chase’s back if Air Canada sues you. Card issuers have no incentive to investigate further, and (in my experience) never ask for further documentation.
- tdfx 5y ago
  I second this comment. Your chargeback request needs to color neatly within the lines of their procedures if you want a smooth process. How you phrase your request is incredibly important. Do not go crazy on details specific to the situation, use a template.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  If Chase was already involved, it seems like Chase denied the chargeback request. Banks have an incentive to not let bad chargebacks through to major merchants, it would reduce the value of the card networks over time, and hence incentivize less use of the card networks resulting in less profit for the banks. I would have taken Air Canada to court though, assuming all the facts are true. A small claims court would have definitely supported them.
  - simplestats 5y ago
    Not sure where this person is, but in the US chargebacks exist because they are required by law. There is also an arbitration processs they are required to provide for disputes, which is pretty cheap.
- thecolorblue 5y ago
  I have had trouble with charge backs with Chase. Generally, I think they are pretty good to work with, but I would not suggest them for any large purchases. You are correct about credit card companies, but for whatever reason, Chase has different incentives.
- chrischen 5y ago
  In my experience it’s almost too easy to create a chargeback and the whole system is grossly inefficient and ripe for abuse. I once called in to make a price protection benefit claim (would refund the price difference of a purchase). The agent assured me it was done and I find out later all they did was create a chargeback and I got refunded the entire price because the merchant didn't respond to it. The dispute resolution system seems like it gets no investment or attention from any stakeholder, a merchant could easily get DOSd by spam disputes if some sort of consumer protest were organized. That’s how overpowered of a consumer tool it is.
mizzao 5y ago
Same experience with an Air Canada ticket here.
drewg123 5y ago
Chase seems to be one of Air Canada's credit card rewards program partners[1]. My guess is that this relationship has something to do with Chase's refusal to issue a chargeback. [1]https://www.aircanada.com/us/en/aco/home/aeroplan/credit-cards/chase.html#/ https://www.aircanada.com/us/en/aco/home/aeroplan/credit-car...
- futharkshill 5y ago
  that seems like a stretch to be honest.
  - drewg123 5y ago
    These programs are worth billions for larger airlines according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_revenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_revenue When there are billions at stake, it does not strike me as a stretch that the credit card partners would bend the rules to benefit their airline partners.
fortran77 5y ago
Right! This is why I always chuckle when the HN thought-leaders always say "just do a chargeback" as if it's easy and guaranteed. I've rarely had success doing them.
- silisili 5y ago
  Anecdotally, I've never had one fail. I've probably done maybe 4 or 5 in 10 years. Though I despise Chase and don't use them, so that may be the key. Amex and Discover are top notch in that department.
- literallycancer 5y ago
  The difference is often your bank. Some of my banks don't even have a way to initiate the charge back process (you have to write a free form email), presumably to reduce overhead and to avoid losing cases needlessly, while the others make it very easy with a web form.

by MWil 5y ago

user_7832 5y ago

Have you thought of going to consumer court? Either that, or a class action lawsuit (if multiple people can group together) should definitely help you see your money. You might also be able to find a lawyer pro-bono as the case is clear cut in your favor (and charge for legal fees in the compensation).

hedora 5y ago

Odd. Did you use the magic phrase: “I need to issue a chargeback. They charged my card for services not rendered. I called their number to contest it and they did not issue a refund.” That (or “they charged my card but did not send the product”) has worked 100% of the time for me. I’ve never provided documentation beyond that. Chase has a strong financial incentive to issue the chargeback (Air Canada ends up paying Chase a fine), and it’s no sweat off Chase’s back if Air Canada sues you. Card issuers have no incentive to investigate further, and (in my experience) never ask for further documentation.

tdfx 5y ago
I second this comment. Your chargeback request needs to color neatly within the lines of their procedures if you want a smooth process. How you phrase your request is incredibly important. Do not go crazy on details specific to the situation, use a template.
lotsofpulp 5y ago
If Chase was already involved, it seems like Chase denied the chargeback request. Banks have an incentive to not let bad chargebacks through to major merchants, it would reduce the value of the card networks over time, and hence incentivize less use of the card networks resulting in less profit for the banks. I would have taken Air Canada to court though, assuming all the facts are true. A small claims court would have definitely supported them.
- simplestats 5y ago
  Not sure where this person is, but in the US chargebacks exist because they are required by law. There is also an arbitration processs they are required to provide for disputes, which is pretty cheap.
thecolorblue 5y ago
I have had trouble with charge backs with Chase. Generally, I think they are pretty good to work with, but I would not suggest them for any large purchases. You are correct about credit card companies, but for whatever reason, Chase has different incentives.
chrischen 5y ago
In my experience it’s almost too easy to create a chargeback and the whole system is grossly inefficient and ripe for abuse. I once called in to make a price protection benefit claim (would refund the price difference of a purchase). The agent assured me it was done and I find out later all they did was create a chargeback and I got refunded the entire price because the merchant didn't respond to it. The dispute resolution system seems like it gets no investment or attention from any stakeholder, a merchant could easily get DOSd by spam disputes if some sort of consumer protest were organized. That’s how overpowered of a consumer tool it is.

mizzao 5y ago

Same experience with an Air Canada ticket here.

drewg123 5y ago

Chase seems to be one of Air Canada's credit card rewards program partners[1]. My guess is that this relationship has something to do with Chase's refusal to issue a chargeback. [1]https://www.aircanada.com/us/en/aco/home/aeroplan/credit-cards/chase.html#/ https://www.aircanada.com/us/en/aco/home/aeroplan/credit-car...

futharkshill 5y ago
that seems like a stretch to be honest.
- drewg123 5y ago
  These programs are worth billions for larger airlines according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_revenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_revenue When there are billions at stake, it does not strike me as a stretch that the credit card partners would bend the rules to benefit their airline partners.

fortran77 5y ago

Right! This is why I always chuckle when the HN thought-leaders always say "just do a chargeback" as if it's easy and guaranteed. I've rarely had success doing them.

silisili 5y ago
Anecdotally, I've never had one fail. I've probably done maybe 4 or 5 in 10 years. Though I despise Chase and don't use them, so that may be the key. Amex and Discover are top notch in that department.
literallycancer 5y ago
The difference is often your bank. Some of my banks don't even have a way to initiate the charge back process (you have to write a free form email), presumably to reduce overhead and to avoid losing cases needlessly, while the others make it very easy with a web form.