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Reminder to anyone reading this: NEVER EVER give access to your bank account to ANYONE. e.g. INTUIT (They personally scammmed me out of a month's worth of sub

Reminder to anyone reading this: NEVER EVER give access to your bank account to ANYONE. e.g. INTUIT (They personally scammmed me out of a month's worth of subscription that I never used). Do NOT give your bank account to Paypal, they WILL withdraw money if they have any excuse. You can however, give all of these your credit card, as any wrongdoing can be ammended via a Chargeback, but there's no chargeback for direct-to-bank withdrawals.

londons_explore 5y ago
This varies country to country. In the UK, direct bank withdrawals (via Direct Debit) are guaranteed forever. Ie. in 30 years time you can reverse a transaction from a company and get all the money instantly, even if the company no longer exists.
- danlugo92 5y ago
  My bank doesn't even offer a dispute option in direct debit transactions.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    you have to call them.
    - jdkenney 5y ago
      This bank and banking system specific. My bank (Canada) doesn’t offer any dispute option either.
- brnt 5y ago
  How does it work if the account is closed, company out of business etc? Does the bank eat the amount? if so, seems easy to abuse.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    The bank (or transfer provider) eats the amount. And yes, it gets quite some abuse. It's especially abused against gas and electric providers when they've gone bankrupt since people tend to have paid those companies tens of thousands over many years, and when the provider has gone bankrupt it's unlikely they'll provide any evidence to dispute any chargeback.
    - Silhouette 5y ago
      Though as a point of interest my small UK-based B2C has seen significant abuse of card chargebacks (i.e., chargebacks issued against legitimate charges and the banks rejecting our dispute) but never a single abusive reversal under Direct Debit, even though in theory the Direct Debit has that indefinite liability attached. I suspect this is because in practice you can issue a chargeback because you didn't like the way someone sneezed and a lot of banks will uphold it while you normally have to give a valid reason to reverse a Direct Debit transaction.
      - dcomp 5y ago
        Probably because you can't dispute for any reason. But if there wasn't enough notice. If you don't give 10 working days notice (unless initiated by the person). An immediate refund can be requested. Bad service isn't a reason for a refund. And if the person doesn't say "This debit was in error. I wasn't given notice" or similar the bank will usually say this is a legitimate direct debit [0] https://www.directdebit.co.uk/DirectDebitExplained/pages/directdebitguarantee.aspx https://www.directdebit.co.uk/DirectDebitExplained/pages/dir...
bserge 5y ago
MWil 5y ago
Not ANY wrongdoing... Despite Air Canada cancelling the flight (we didn't cancel our tickets), despite a public campaign waged to get them to refund passengers, despite the US Department of Transportation fining them $25 million (reduced to $2 million because US gov't), despite Air Canada changing their public website multiple times (I saved screenshots to include "we will fully refund") but then not actually allowing your ticket to be processed, despite me submitting DOZENS of responses to Chase for clarification on why all of this is wrong of Air Canada... Chase: "I'm sorry, if they don't want to refund you, even if they said they would, there's nothing we can do." https://viewfromthewing.com/dot-issues-largest-fine-ever-against-air-canada-for-stealing-customer-money/ https://viewfromthewing.com/dot-issues-largest-fine-ever-aga...
- user_7832 5y ago
  Have you thought of going to consumer court? Either that, or a class action lawsuit (if multiple people can group together) should definitely help you see your money. You might also be able to find a lawyer pro-bono as the case is clear cut in your favor (and charge for legal fees in the compensation).
- hedora 5y ago
  Odd. Did you use the magic phrase: “I need to issue a chargeback. They charged my card for services not rendered. I called their number to contest it and they did not issue a refund.” That (or “they charged my card but did not send the product”) has worked 100% of the time for me. I’ve never provided documentation beyond that. Chase has a strong financial incentive to issue the chargeback (Air Canada ends up paying Chase a fine), and it’s no sweat off Chase’s back if Air Canada sues you. Card issuers have no incentive to investigate further, and (in my experience) never ask for further documentation.
  - tdfx 5y ago
    I second this comment. Your chargeback request needs to color neatly within the lines of their procedures if you want a smooth process. How you phrase your request is incredibly important. Do not go crazy on details specific to the situation, use a template.
commandlinefan 5y ago
> NEVER EVER give access to your bank account to ANYONE. The thing is, that’s the only way to do direct deposit. It makes me uncomfortable too, but that’s been the standard for decades.
- nojito 5y ago
  You should be funneling income into a separate account and moving it elsewhere after.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    I have a friend that is extremely wealthy. He can pretty much buy whatever he wants. He does this all the time. He has a "cannon fodder" bank account that gets just enough for the expected payments.
  - 41b696ef1113 5y ago
    I do this as well. This reminds me to look into a long standing request of mine. I want Chase to give me an account that has no external bank access allowed. Money can only be moved into/out of it from the other Chase account under my ownership. My immediate look a few years ago did not reveal any built in way to make this possible.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  To allow someone a direct deposit they should only need your name and bank account numbers. You shouldn't be giving them access with things like your password.
  - gruez 5y ago
    Giving them your name/account number is all that's needed for someone to withdraw from your account. That's how gyms work. They just require your account number and/or a void check (which has your account number). They don't need you to sign into your bank account.
    - 5y ago
idiot900 5y ago
It's easy enough to use one of the various online banks to establish a separate bank account for Paypal and the like.
Tijdreiziger 5y ago
> but there's no chargeback for direct-to-bank withdrawals. This isn't correct within SEPA (the Single Euro Payments Area). You do need to issue the chargeback within 8 weeks, though. [1] [1] https://stripe.com/docs/payments/sepa-debit#disputed-payments https://stripe.com/docs/payments/sepa-debit#disputed-payment...
- literallycancer 5y ago
  If the transaction was unauthorised (i.e. the collection does not relate to the signed mandate), the payer can ask for a refund up to 13 months after the direct debit.
runarberg 5y ago
Is this advice really practical. Where I come from my social identity number is public and not a secret, and my bank info is something we hand out all the time if we want someone to transfer to our account (as it is designed for). Moving to America and finding out that these two are your top secrets certainly seemed odd at first, but then I found out that no matter what you are doing you always have to give out your at least your SSN, but also your date of birth and sometimes your banking info. The amount of times you need to give out information which is supposed to be private is so often that for any normal person it is unreasonable to assume they know when their not. That is, there are so many situations where you are unable to refuse handing out this information, that when the time comes where the right thing to do would be to not give out the information, you won’t know it. This system seems optimized for scams.

londons_explore 5y ago

This varies country to country. In the UK, direct bank withdrawals (via Direct Debit) are guaranteed forever. Ie. in 30 years time you can reverse a transaction from a company and get all the money instantly, even if the company no longer exists.

danlugo92 5y ago
My bank doesn't even offer a dispute option in direct debit transactions.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  you have to call them.
  - jdkenney 5y ago
    This bank and banking system specific. My bank (Canada) doesn’t offer any dispute option either.
brnt 5y ago
How does it work if the account is closed, company out of business etc? Does the bank eat the amount? if so, seems easy to abuse.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  The bank (or transfer provider) eats the amount. And yes, it gets quite some abuse. It's especially abused against gas and electric providers when they've gone bankrupt since people tend to have paid those companies tens of thousands over many years, and when the provider has gone bankrupt it's unlikely they'll provide any evidence to dispute any chargeback.
  - Silhouette 5y ago
    Though as a point of interest my small UK-based B2C has seen significant abuse of card chargebacks (i.e., chargebacks issued against legitimate charges and the banks rejecting our dispute) but never a single abusive reversal under Direct Debit, even though in theory the Direct Debit has that indefinite liability attached. I suspect this is because in practice you can issue a chargeback because you didn't like the way someone sneezed and a lot of banks will uphold it while you normally have to give a valid reason to reverse a Direct Debit transaction.
    - dcomp 5y ago
      Probably because you can't dispute for any reason. But if there wasn't enough notice. If you don't give 10 working days notice (unless initiated by the person). An immediate refund can be requested. Bad service isn't a reason for a refund. And if the person doesn't say "This debit was in error. I wasn't given notice" or similar the bank will usually say this is a legitimate direct debit [0] https://www.directdebit.co.uk/DirectDebitExplained/pages/directdebitguarantee.aspx https://www.directdebit.co.uk/DirectDebitExplained/pages/dir...

bserge 5y ago

MWil 5y ago

Not ANY wrongdoing... Despite Air Canada cancelling the flight (we didn't cancel our tickets), despite a public campaign waged to get them to refund passengers, despite the US Department of Transportation fining them $25 million (reduced to $2 million because US gov't), despite Air Canada changing their public website multiple times (I saved screenshots to include "we will fully refund") but then not actually allowing your ticket to be processed, despite me submitting DOZENS of responses to Chase for clarification on why all of this is wrong of Air Canada... Chase: "I'm sorry, if they don't want to refund you, even if they said they would, there's nothing we can do." https://viewfromthewing.com/dot-issues-largest-fine-ever-against-air-canada-for-stealing-customer-money/ https://viewfromthewing.com/dot-issues-largest-fine-ever-aga...

user_7832 5y ago
Have you thought of going to consumer court? Either that, or a class action lawsuit (if multiple people can group together) should definitely help you see your money. You might also be able to find a lawyer pro-bono as the case is clear cut in your favor (and charge for legal fees in the compensation).
hedora 5y ago
Odd. Did you use the magic phrase: “I need to issue a chargeback. They charged my card for services not rendered. I called their number to contest it and they did not issue a refund.” That (or “they charged my card but did not send the product”) has worked 100% of the time for me. I’ve never provided documentation beyond that. Chase has a strong financial incentive to issue the chargeback (Air Canada ends up paying Chase a fine), and it’s no sweat off Chase’s back if Air Canada sues you. Card issuers have no incentive to investigate further, and (in my experience) never ask for further documentation.
- tdfx 5y ago
  I second this comment. Your chargeback request needs to color neatly within the lines of their procedures if you want a smooth process. How you phrase your request is incredibly important. Do not go crazy on details specific to the situation, use a template.

commandlinefan 5y ago

> NEVER EVER give access to your bank account to ANYONE. The thing is, that’s the only way to do direct deposit. It makes me uncomfortable too, but that’s been the standard for decades.

nojito 5y ago
You should be funneling income into a separate account and moving it elsewhere after.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  I have a friend that is extremely wealthy. He can pretty much buy whatever he wants. He does this all the time. He has a "cannon fodder" bank account that gets just enough for the expected payments.
- 41b696ef1113 5y ago
  I do this as well. This reminds me to look into a long standing request of mine. I want Chase to give me an account that has no external bank access allowed. Money can only be moved into/out of it from the other Chase account under my ownership. My immediate look a few years ago did not reveal any built in way to make this possible.
chrisseaton 5y ago
To allow someone a direct deposit they should only need your name and bank account numbers. You shouldn't be giving them access with things like your password.
- gruez 5y ago
  Giving them your name/account number is all that's needed for someone to withdraw from your account. That's how gyms work. They just require your account number and/or a void check (which has your account number). They don't need you to sign into your bank account.
  - 5y ago

idiot900 5y ago

It's easy enough to use one of the various online banks to establish a separate bank account for Paypal and the like.

Tijdreiziger 5y ago

> but there's no chargeback for direct-to-bank withdrawals. This isn't correct within SEPA (the Single Euro Payments Area). You do need to issue the chargeback within 8 weeks, though. [1] [1] https://stripe.com/docs/payments/sepa-debit#disputed-payments https://stripe.com/docs/payments/sepa-debit#disputed-payment...

literallycancer 5y ago
If the transaction was unauthorised (i.e. the collection does not relate to the signed mandate), the payer can ask for a refund up to 13 months after the direct debit.

runarberg 5y ago

Is this advice really practical. Where I come from my social identity number is public and not a secret, and my bank info is something we hand out all the time if we want someone to transfer to our account (as it is designed for). Moving to America and finding out that these two are your top secrets certainly seemed odd at first, but then I found out that no matter what you are doing you always have to give out your at least your SSN, but also your date of birth and sometimes your banking info. The amount of times you need to give out information which is supposed to be private is so often that for any normal person it is unreasonable to assume they know when their not. That is, there are so many situations where you are unable to refuse handing out this information, that when the time comes where the right thing to do would be to not give out the information, you won’t know it. This system seems optimized for scams.