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"It is just business" - this kind of thinking is why we have shitty situations like this. Upwork is a billion dollar company, 12K is a joke to them whereas 12k

by akudha 5y ago

"It is just business" - this kind of thinking is why we have shitty situations like this. Upwork is a billion dollar company, 12K is a joke to them whereas 12k is a lot of money for an individual. The customer paid Upwork using someone else's card, he didn't pay the freelancer. So the party that got duped is Upwork. They should either eat the loss or recover the money from the customer, if that is possible. Notice the only party that is getting screwed here is the little guy? Why is this acceptable? Maybe this should NOT be "normal business relationship"?

commandlinefan 5y ago
> 12K is a joke to them Not that I disagree, but I got the sense from the post that upwork has suddenly detected a lot of this exact same scam from a lot of clients. They may be dealing with hundreds or even thousands of the same situation.
- akudha 5y ago
  Even if that is the case, that is still Upwork’s problem. Not the freelancer’s problem.
  - graderjs 5y ago
    I know--but that kind of one-sidedness is the same thing that we are accusing Upwork of doing, by making it just the freelancer's problem. I'm not defending them, and I don't know the facts, I'm just saying we should maintain a wholistic perspective about this--it makes our moral stance more credible. And it's better--it makes us better people. Because it's not just like, "well it's good for me, screw you" -- it's: "well it's the right thing to do." I think we need ethics to guide use, as well. In business especially. Even in the small ways that many of us are in business as contractors, we still need ethics. Plus it's gonna lead to better karma for us, and better outcomes. If you protect yourself, tough but fair, know you did everything right, but still stood for your own interests, but didn't miss the chance to try to find a win-win: I think that's the way to go.
graderjs 5y ago
Agree, totally. The only thing I disagree with you with is-- > "It is just business" - this kind of thinking is why we have shitty situations like this I mean I get what you mean, that we sort of normalized it. That's one way to take that: lower our expectations, don't expect better. But I think that's missing a really important piece of the picture: the main other way to take that. So the statement that, in other words, facing that reality calmly and being prepared for it--is causative of that reality. I don't agree with that. That reality is caused by shitty human behavior (what I like to call "ape brain shit"), it is not caused by people accepting this is the way things go (sometimes, right? not always), and taking precautions to protect themselves. Being ready to defend yourself doesn't normalize crime, it does the opposite, I believe. Because fraud may be enabled unfortunately by people not doing that--without at all pushing any responsibility for fraud onto victims--the more you can protect yourself, the less fraud you risk you will face. But none of this practical preparedness makes it OK, nor does it take away from what a shitty situation it is. Very very shitty. Most definitely. But that's what we humans still are, right now, at this stage of our development. Otherwise we would not be so shitty to each other so often. So...exactly, we got to protect ourselves. But you can't do that effectively unless you realize these things go on. People will push risk downhill. It's how it works. So you got to be prepared to handle that. Unfortunately, that's normal business relationship. I agree that it "shouldn't" be that way. But then a lot of things in the world "shouldn't" be the way that they are. When it comes to money, why should we expect that to be any different? I think we can expect that to be worse. Because of how much greed, and obsession and dependency there is on money...But I firmly believe the way to deal with that is to face it with eyes open and work out ways to handle it. Rather than hoping, "Man I wish the system was different." I sure would like to tho...Would love to just let my guard down, not give a shit about contracts. Not think I need to "protect" myself. Would love to do that. But I'd feel I was being irresponsible to myself if I did that--if I expected that somehow someone else was gonna look for the little guy--for me--except me. I'm the one's that got to do that. And I hope you all do that, too--so you stay safe and protect yourselves. Know the world can be crazy out there, people can rip you off--so figure out ways to handle it, and even avoid it, if you can! More power!
nothatscool 5y ago
>The customer paid Upwork using someone else's card, he didn't pay the freelancer. So the party that got duped is Upwork. For me that is the key here. Upwork is the one accepting payment so it's their responsibility to verify that payment. It's actually impossible for the freelancer to do that.
- wpietri 5y ago
  If the freelancer had taken a credit card directly, he would be in the same situation as now.
  - nothatscool 5y ago
    But he would have had the opportunity to manage the payment himself whether that be not accepting credits cards, using a payment processor with charge back insurance or at the very least trying to verify that the credit card actually belongs to the client. As far as I know he can't do any of these things because the client isn't paying him, they are paying upwork and upwork is paying him.
    - wpietri 5y ago
      Sure. And he always had that opportunity. Both in general and specifically with this client when they started meeting in person. He chose to bill through Upwork and then specifically declined to use the time-tracking software under which they would cover fraud. I get that this was a surprising outcome for him, and I feel bad for him. But as a business consultant working specifically in fintech, I don't feel very bad for him. Looking at the dates, I also suspect he isn't telling us about the fraudulent payments he did get to pocket.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        > He chose to bill through Upwork and then specifically declined to use the time-tracking software under which they would cover fraud. That software is for detecting a different kind -- exactly the opposite kind to what happened here -- of fraud. [Edit to add:] > Looking at the dates, I also suspect he isn't telling us about the fraudulent payments he did get to pocket. I thought he mentioned that he had worked for "Robin" for two years? And he never says he was paid with a different credit card for the first eighteen months, does he? So as I read it he does indeed tell us about the fraudulent payments he did get to pocket: Those for those first eighteen months. It's just that the legitimate credit card holder couldn't issue a chargeback for those, so there's nothing for Upwork to try and claw back from him there.
danlugo92 5y ago
The fact that this is even a matter of discussion... That's like my mechanic getting scammmed on some spare pieces and trying to bill me for them.
jliptzin 5y ago
Yea exactly. I love how upwork charges upwards of 20% of the payment but as soon as they get duped they want to recover 100% of the money from the person who can least afford it in. Why are they taking such a large fee if not to cover things like fraud risk? I think it’s time for some laws to regulate these shitty companies.

by akudha 5y ago

commandlinefan 5y ago

> 12K is a joke to them Not that I disagree, but I got the sense from the post that upwork has suddenly detected a lot of this exact same scam from a lot of clients. They may be dealing with hundreds or even thousands of the same situation.

akudha 5y ago
Even if that is the case, that is still Upwork’s problem. Not the freelancer’s problem.
- graderjs 5y ago
  I know--but that kind of one-sidedness is the same thing that we are accusing Upwork of doing, by making it just the freelancer's problem. I'm not defending them, and I don't know the facts, I'm just saying we should maintain a wholistic perspective about this--it makes our moral stance more credible. And it's better--it makes us better people. Because it's not just like, "well it's good for me, screw you" -- it's: "well it's the right thing to do." I think we need ethics to guide use, as well. In business especially. Even in the small ways that many of us are in business as contractors, we still need ethics. Plus it's gonna lead to better karma for us, and better outcomes. If you protect yourself, tough but fair, know you did everything right, but still stood for your own interests, but didn't miss the chance to try to find a win-win: I think that's the way to go.

graderjs 5y ago

Agree, totally. The only thing I disagree with you with is-- > "It is just business" - this kind of thinking is why we have shitty situations like this I mean I get what you mean, that we sort of normalized it. That's one way to take that: lower our expectations, don't expect better. But I think that's missing a really important piece of the picture: the main other way to take that. So the statement that, in other words, facing that reality calmly and being prepared for it--is causative of that reality. I don't agree with that. That reality is caused by shitty human behavior (what I like to call "ape brain shit"), it is not caused by people accepting this is the way things go (sometimes, right? not always), and taking precautions to protect themselves. Being ready to defend yourself doesn't normalize crime, it does the opposite, I believe. Because fraud may be enabled unfortunately by people not doing that--without at all pushing any responsibility for fraud onto victims--the more you can protect yourself, the less fraud you risk you will face. But none of this practical preparedness makes it OK, nor does it take away from what a shitty situation it is. Very very shitty. Most definitely. But that's what we humans still are, right now, at this stage of our development. Otherwise we would not be so shitty to each other so often. So...exactly, we got to protect ourselves. But you can't do that effectively unless you realize these things go on. People will push risk downhill. It's how it works. So you got to be prepared to handle that. Unfortunately, that's normal business relationship. I agree that it "shouldn't" be that way. But then a lot of things in the world "shouldn't" be the way that they are. When it comes to money, why should we expect that to be any different? I think we can expect that to be worse. Because of how much greed, and obsession and dependency there is on money...But I firmly believe the way to deal with that is to face it with eyes open and work out ways to handle it. Rather than hoping, "Man I wish the system was different." I sure would like to tho...Would love to just let my guard down, not give a shit about contracts. Not think I need to "protect" myself. Would love to do that. But I'd feel I was being irresponsible to myself if I did that--if I expected that somehow someone else was gonna look for the little guy--for me--except me. I'm the one's that got to do that. And I hope you all do that, too--so you stay safe and protect yourselves. Know the world can be crazy out there, people can rip you off--so figure out ways to handle it, and even avoid it, if you can! More power!

nothatscool 5y ago

>The customer paid Upwork using someone else's card, he didn't pay the freelancer. So the party that got duped is Upwork. For me that is the key here. Upwork is the one accepting payment so it's their responsibility to verify that payment. It's actually impossible for the freelancer to do that.

wpietri 5y ago
If the freelancer had taken a credit card directly, he would be in the same situation as now.
- nothatscool 5y ago
  But he would have had the opportunity to manage the payment himself whether that be not accepting credits cards, using a payment processor with charge back insurance or at the very least trying to verify that the credit card actually belongs to the client. As far as I know he can't do any of these things because the client isn't paying him, they are paying upwork and upwork is paying him.
  - wpietri 5y ago
    Sure. And he always had that opportunity. Both in general and specifically with this client when they started meeting in person. He chose to bill through Upwork and then specifically declined to use the time-tracking software under which they would cover fraud. I get that this was a surprising outcome for him, and I feel bad for him. But as a business consultant working specifically in fintech, I don't feel very bad for him. Looking at the dates, I also suspect he isn't telling us about the fraudulent payments he did get to pocket.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      > He chose to bill through Upwork and then specifically declined to use the time-tracking software under which they would cover fraud. That software is for detecting a different kind -- exactly the opposite kind to what happened here -- of fraud. [Edit to add:] > Looking at the dates, I also suspect he isn't telling us about the fraudulent payments he did get to pocket. I thought he mentioned that he had worked for "Robin" for two years? And he never says he was paid with a different credit card for the first eighteen months, does he? So as I read it he does indeed tell us about the fraudulent payments he did get to pocket: Those for those first eighteen months. It's just that the legitimate credit card holder couldn't issue a chargeback for those, so there's nothing for Upwork to try and claw back from him there.

danlugo92 5y ago

The fact that this is even a matter of discussion... That's like my mechanic getting scammmed on some spare pieces and trying to bill me for them.

jliptzin 5y ago

Yea exactly. I love how upwork charges upwards of 20% of the payment but as soon as they get duped they want to recover 100% of the money from the person who can least afford it in. Why are they taking such a large fee if not to cover things like fraud risk? I think it’s time for some laws to regulate these shitty companies.