4 ms·

As a lawyer - contact a lawyer. This is enough money that i would not eat it. You cannot, in fact, be forced to work for free and forced to eat the cost of frau

As a lawyer - contact a lawyer. This is enough money that i would not eat it. You cannot, in fact, be forced to work for free and forced to eat the cost of fraud. This kind of case will be taken on contingency

JackFr 5y ago
Indeed contact the police as well. The ‘client’ is quite simply a thief. Using someone else’s credit card without permission to obtain thousands of dollars of services is criminal fraud. Ultimately he should be the one forced to make restitution under court order.
- u801e 5y ago
  This may be difficult due to the fact that the defendant and plaintiff are in different countries. The costs for pursuing this action may well exceed the actual loss.
  - bjornsing 5y ago
    I thought they were both in Zurich... no?
    - DannyBee 5y ago
      That was my understanding as well. If they are in different countries, it would definitely be time consuming and costly.
      - u801e 5y ago
        I think the author was in Zurich temporarily, but resides in another country based on what he wrote here: >> Why would a bank take my side (a freelancer from another country) instead of his own actual client who never actually requested those services? It's definitely possible that the author resides in the same country, but he doesn't go into detail in the article.
      - disiplus 5y ago
        on his website it said zurich, seeing rates of 40usd for a freelancer based in zurich does not make any sense. zurich is to expensive for him to charge so little.
nikanj 5y ago
You can easily be forced to work for free: 1) Draft unfair contract / agreement. Remember to include arbitration clauses. 2) If you want to work on our platform, you gotta sign the contract 3) Sucks to be you I'm not pretending a small-time freelancer from the other side of the planet has any hope of prevailing against Upwork in court.
- DannyBee 5y ago
  This is not a common reality, this is an internet meme view of the world. Even in arbitration, arbitrators are not mustache twirling corporate villians. In almost all cases you would succeed in getting a judgement for the value of the work you did. You may not be able to successfully enforce it against folks.
  - lostdog 5y ago
    > Even in arbitration, arbitrators are not mustache twirling corporate villians. Arbitration is secret, and arbitrators are chosen by the corporation, so I'm very curious how you could prove this not to be true.
    - DannyBee 5y ago
      The first is sometimes true, but deliberate - the goal is to get people to get all the evidence out for real. This only happens in practice when it wont be used against people. You can be cynical about it, but it works, and enables arbitrators to force evidence to be produced. The same happens in real court and is effective. You can’t claim the fifth if they guarantee they won’t use it against you. The same thing happens in almost all adr, like mediation, for the same reason. It is also why you talking to your psychiatrist is confidential. The second is rarely true. I’m really unsure of your info source here. Here are the standard JAMS rules: https://www.jamsadr.com/rules-comprehensive-arbitration/#Rule-15 https://www.jamsadr.com/rules-comprehensive-arbitration/#Rul... They are not chosen by the corporation. This is also deliberate. Courts will invalidate sham proceedings, so usually is is either agreement of the parties, or the plaintiff chooses
55555 5y ago
This post makes no sense to me. You seem to really be a lawyer, and yet you think it would somehow make sense for this guy to fight an international case with potentially two third-parties over 12.5k? Most good lawyers charge $400+ per hour and want a $10k retainer. How is this making sense to you? Is it because in the event of a win the loser would likely pay all legal fees as well? Seems to me that hiring a lawyer in this case only makes sense for the lawyer. Unrelated, but I think two very likely possibilities here are that the guys business is failing so he decided to chargeback 12.5k worth of work to save money or that he is part of a bigger company that made a similar decision. Look up Saks 5th avenue chargeback situation. They did ~35 million USD in fraudulent chargebacks to make some free money, apparently.
- gjs278 5y ago
- Ansil849 5y ago
  - tptacek 5y ago
    You can't write comments like this on Hacker News. You're required to assume good faith. Beyond which, the implication you're making here is asinine, given the person you're making it about.
  - DannyBee 5y ago
    This sort of jaded cynicism with no knowledge of the people is precisely what causes so much of these problems in the first place
- tptacek 5y ago
  He's most definitely a lawyer. "These kinds of cases will get taken on contingency" means that there are lawyers who will take cases like this for no up-front fee, but rather a percentage of the winnings. Expensive lawyers charge $400+ per hour. There are all kinds of lawyers. The lawyer you e.g. use to sue your ex-landlord over a security deposit does not take a $10k retainer. The lawyer who manages the warrants and reps process for your M&A deal does.

JackFr 5y ago

Indeed contact the police as well. The ‘client’ is quite simply a thief. Using someone else’s credit card without permission to obtain thousands of dollars of services is criminal fraud. Ultimately he should be the one forced to make restitution under court order.

u801e 5y ago
This may be difficult due to the fact that the defendant and plaintiff are in different countries. The costs for pursuing this action may well exceed the actual loss.
- bjornsing 5y ago
  I thought they were both in Zurich... no?
  - DannyBee 5y ago
    That was my understanding as well. If they are in different countries, it would definitely be time consuming and costly.
    - u801e 5y ago
      I think the author was in Zurich temporarily, but resides in another country based on what he wrote here: >> Why would a bank take my side (a freelancer from another country) instead of his own actual client who never actually requested those services? It's definitely possible that the author resides in the same country, but he doesn't go into detail in the article.
    - disiplus 5y ago
      on his website it said zurich, seeing rates of 40usd for a freelancer based in zurich does not make any sense. zurich is to expensive for him to charge so little.

nikanj 5y ago

You can easily be forced to work for free: 1) Draft unfair contract / agreement. Remember to include arbitration clauses. 2) If you want to work on our platform, you gotta sign the contract 3) Sucks to be you I'm not pretending a small-time freelancer from the other side of the planet has any hope of prevailing against Upwork in court.

DannyBee 5y ago
This is not a common reality, this is an internet meme view of the world. Even in arbitration, arbitrators are not mustache twirling corporate villians. In almost all cases you would succeed in getting a judgement for the value of the work you did. You may not be able to successfully enforce it against folks.
- lostdog 5y ago
  > Even in arbitration, arbitrators are not mustache twirling corporate villians. Arbitration is secret, and arbitrators are chosen by the corporation, so I'm very curious how you could prove this not to be true.
  - DannyBee 5y ago
    The first is sometimes true, but deliberate - the goal is to get people to get all the evidence out for real. This only happens in practice when it wont be used against people. You can be cynical about it, but it works, and enables arbitrators to force evidence to be produced. The same happens in real court and is effective. You can’t claim the fifth if they guarantee they won’t use it against you. The same thing happens in almost all adr, like mediation, for the same reason. It is also why you talking to your psychiatrist is confidential. The second is rarely true. I’m really unsure of your info source here. Here are the standard JAMS rules: https://www.jamsadr.com/rules-comprehensive-arbitration/#Rule-15 https://www.jamsadr.com/rules-comprehensive-arbitration/#Rul... They are not chosen by the corporation. This is also deliberate. Courts will invalidate sham proceedings, so usually is is either agreement of the parties, or the plaintiff chooses

55555 5y ago

This post makes no sense to me. You seem to really be a lawyer, and yet you think it would somehow make sense for this guy to fight an international case with potentially two third-parties over 12.5k? Most good lawyers charge $400+ per hour and want a $10k retainer. How is this making sense to you? Is it because in the event of a win the loser would likely pay all legal fees as well? Seems to me that hiring a lawyer in this case only makes sense for the lawyer. Unrelated, but I think two very likely possibilities here are that the guys business is failing so he decided to chargeback 12.5k worth of work to save money or that he is part of a bigger company that made a similar decision. Look up Saks 5th avenue chargeback situation. They did ~35 million USD in fraudulent chargebacks to make some free money, apparently.

gjs278 5y ago
Ansil849 5y ago
- tptacek 5y ago
  You can't write comments like this on Hacker News. You're required to assume good faith. Beyond which, the implication you're making here is asinine, given the person you're making it about.
- DannyBee 5y ago
  This sort of jaded cynicism with no knowledge of the people is precisely what causes so much of these problems in the first place
tptacek 5y ago
He's most definitely a lawyer. "These kinds of cases will get taken on contingency" means that there are lawyers who will take cases like this for no up-front fee, but rather a percentage of the winnings. Expensive lawyers charge $400+ per hour. There are all kinds of lawyers. The lawyer you e.g. use to sue your ex-landlord over a security deposit does not take a $10k retainer. The lawyer who manages the warrants and reps process for your M&A deal does.