5 ms·

I believe the problem here is that upwork thinks Robin and him are the same person. They probably have proof that both Robin and you login from same IP (since y

by tlogan 5y ago

I believe the problem here is that upwork thinks Robin and him are the same person. They probably have proof that both Robin and you login from same IP (since you met each other). If robin is not cooperating (not wanting to pay for your work - which then you give money for charge back), then you can go after Robin. You got scammed.

300bps 5y ago
My initial reaction was incredulity against Upwork because this story as described doesn’t seem to make sense. You reminded me though that freelancer sites are one of the easiest ways to turn stolen credit cards into cash. It does sound like OP flagged for this at Upwork.
- piaste 5y ago
  However, OP claimed to have sent Upwork proof of two years of actual projects completed. While Upwork doubtlessly asked for them to verify that OP had not been scamming the client, it also shows that two years of real work had been done. A credit card launderer would not have had such material at hand.
  - alisonkisk 5y ago
  - tlogan 5y ago
    So he got scammed by Robin. And Robin was smart to meet the guy so Upwork has reason to believe that contractor is also a scammer (the account is not closed because they want to recover the money first). Without cooperation from Robin this is a hard case for the contractor. If he had logging by screenshots it might be easier but with manual logging of hours there is very little reason to believe. In short, Robin scammed the contractor using “contractor friendly” tactics: manual logging, let’s meet, etc. Upwork does warn about that, but scammers will tell something like “I trust you”, “upwork invides your privacy”, etc.
    - piaste 5y ago
      > If he had logging by screenshots it might be easier but with manual logging of hours there is very little reason to believe. OP wrote "I sent Upwork two years’ worth of projects". I assume that meant he showed them the actual work, rather than simple activity logs. With any luck, the content of the projects should be sufficiently specific to "Robin"'s business that it could show it was not unrelated work being passed off as Upwork activity. And if I were in OP's place, I would have sent any chat logs I had had with Robin. At some point the effort required to fake all that evidence should be high enough to make it exceedingly unlikely for OP to be a simple credit card fraudster. I should note that none of the above is my key reason for siding with OP. The key reason for siding with OP is that Upwork, if I understand the system correctly, process the payments themselves and does not give its freelancers any way to actually prevent credit card fraud, so it cannot demand that they take on that responsibility. If I buy products on Amazon Marketplace with a stolen CC, does Amazon demand money from the sellers? I sure hope not.
      - tlogan 5y ago
        > If I buy products on Amazon Marketplace with a stolen CC, > does Amazon demand money from the sellers? I sure hope not. Of course - if the seller says "I do not have FedEx tracking number, but here is the picture of me walking to the post office". Or the seller says: "I trusted this buyer and I just drop it at his house". The key here is that there is no verifiable way for Upwork to know that this hours really happen.
  - 300bps 5y ago
    I understand what you’re saying. What I don’t understand though is OP said that two years of charges were charged back. My understanding is that is not possible.
ethbr0 5y ago
Isn't this the eBay problem in a nutshell? In that, it's the coordinating party's job to combat this as best they can, because they're in the most information privileged seat? If Upwork thinks Robin and the freelancer are the same person, they're the ones best able to sort that out, no? Presumably the freelancer doesn't have access to the full activity history and profile details of Robin, but Upwork does. And if they do believe that, this seems a bizarre outcome. Why would you allow someone you believe to be a scammer to remain on your platform?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
freemint 5y ago
If UpWork thinks they are the same they should sue Robin in court not take money away without a court order. (At least in Germany) if you rent some parking space but don't pay the parking space owner is not allowed to tow your car to force payment.
- FL410 5y ago
  But surely the owner is allowed to tow the car to regain use of his parking spot?
  - kergonath 5y ago
    Not sure about Germany, but in a couple of other European countries I am familiar with, they aren’t. They are only allowed to ask the police to tow the car.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - freemint 5y ago
    You wouldn't even be allowed to clamp the car or interfere with their property on your property. The police won't help you either. It is the task of the civil court system to liquidate damages until then they will have to be tolerated. See somewhere in this podcast by a public radio by a lawyer. https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/podcast/rechthaber/audio-stromanbieter-wechseln-kuendigung-strompreise-100.html https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/podcast/rechthaber/audio-stro... You would be able to tow after contract is terminated usually after two months without payment but until then you are not allowed to touch their car.
- tlogan 5y ago
  I think that upwork will first try hard to recover money from the client (and they will get the client into collection if the chargeback is fraudulent). Then, upwork will dispute chargebacks if chargebacks do not seem to be valid (so-called friendly fraud). But if the chargeback is valid and the client is really using a stolen CC, they will check if there is some suspicious activity in the relationship between the client and the contractor. If there is no clear proof (no screenshot logging) and similar login locations + VPN, then they will assume this is orchestrated CC fraud. So Robin committed fraud and scammed the contractor. Sadly, Upwork will not protect a contractor if the contract and the scammer had a “trusting” relationship (no screenshots, etc.).

by tlogan 5y ago

300bps 5y ago

My initial reaction was incredulity against Upwork because this story as described doesn’t seem to make sense. You reminded me though that freelancer sites are one of the easiest ways to turn stolen credit cards into cash. It does sound like OP flagged for this at Upwork.

piaste 5y ago
However, OP claimed to have sent Upwork proof of two years of actual projects completed. While Upwork doubtlessly asked for them to verify that OP had not been scamming the client, it also shows that two years of real work had been done. A credit card launderer would not have had such material at hand.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
- tlogan 5y ago
  So he got scammed by Robin. And Robin was smart to meet the guy so Upwork has reason to believe that contractor is also a scammer (the account is not closed because they want to recover the money first). Without cooperation from Robin this is a hard case for the contractor. If he had logging by screenshots it might be easier but with manual logging of hours there is very little reason to believe. In short, Robin scammed the contractor using “contractor friendly” tactics: manual logging, let’s meet, etc. Upwork does warn about that, but scammers will tell something like “I trust you”, “upwork invides your privacy”, etc.
  - piaste 5y ago
    > If he had logging by screenshots it might be easier but with manual logging of hours there is very little reason to believe. OP wrote "I sent Upwork two years’ worth of projects". I assume that meant he showed them the actual work, rather than simple activity logs. With any luck, the content of the projects should be sufficiently specific to "Robin"'s business that it could show it was not unrelated work being passed off as Upwork activity. And if I were in OP's place, I would have sent any chat logs I had had with Robin. At some point the effort required to fake all that evidence should be high enough to make it exceedingly unlikely for OP to be a simple credit card fraudster. I should note that none of the above is my key reason for siding with OP. The key reason for siding with OP is that Upwork, if I understand the system correctly, process the payments themselves and does not give its freelancers any way to actually prevent credit card fraud, so it cannot demand that they take on that responsibility. If I buy products on Amazon Marketplace with a stolen CC, does Amazon demand money from the sellers? I sure hope not.
    - tlogan 5y ago
      > If I buy products on Amazon Marketplace with a stolen CC, > does Amazon demand money from the sellers? I sure hope not. Of course - if the seller says "I do not have FedEx tracking number, but here is the picture of me walking to the post office". Or the seller says: "I trusted this buyer and I just drop it at his house". The key here is that there is no verifiable way for Upwork to know that this hours really happen.
- 300bps 5y ago
  I understand what you’re saying. What I don’t understand though is OP said that two years of charges were charged back. My understanding is that is not possible.

ethbr0 5y ago

Isn't this the eBay problem in a nutshell? In that, it's the coordinating party's job to combat this as best they can, because they're in the most information privileged seat? If Upwork thinks Robin and the freelancer are the same person, they're the ones best able to sort that out, no? Presumably the freelancer doesn't have access to the full activity history and profile details of Robin, but Upwork does. And if they do believe that, this seems a bizarre outcome. Why would you allow someone you believe to be a scammer to remain on your platform?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

freemint 5y ago

If UpWork thinks they are the same they should sue Robin in court not take money away without a court order. (At least in Germany) if you rent some parking space but don't pay the parking space owner is not allowed to tow your car to force payment.

FL410 5y ago
But surely the owner is allowed to tow the car to regain use of his parking spot?
- kergonath 5y ago
  Not sure about Germany, but in a couple of other European countries I am familiar with, they aren’t. They are only allowed to ask the police to tow the car.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- freemint 5y ago
  You wouldn't even be allowed to clamp the car or interfere with their property on your property. The police won't help you either. It is the task of the civil court system to liquidate damages until then they will have to be tolerated. See somewhere in this podcast by a public radio by a lawyer. https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/podcast/rechthaber/audio-stromanbieter-wechseln-kuendigung-strompreise-100.html https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/podcast/rechthaber/audio-stro... You would be able to tow after contract is terminated usually after two months without payment but until then you are not allowed to touch their car.
tlogan 5y ago
I think that upwork will first try hard to recover money from the client (and they will get the client into collection if the chargeback is fraudulent). Then, upwork will dispute chargebacks if chargebacks do not seem to be valid (so-called friendly fraud). But if the chargeback is valid and the client is really using a stolen CC, they will check if there is some suspicious activity in the relationship between the client and the contractor. If there is no clear proof (no screenshot logging) and similar login locations + VPN, then they will assume this is orchestrated CC fraud. So Robin committed fraud and scammed the contractor. Sadly, Upwork will not protect a contractor if the contract and the scammer had a “trusting” relationship (no screenshots, etc.).