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I only partially agree with you there---as a PI, I also have an option to reward these sort of activities. I understand that it is not a good idea to employ som

I only partially agree with you there---as a PI, I also have an option to reward these sort of activities. I understand that it is not a good idea to employ someone for the wrong role, so any 'non-core work' activities need to be at least discussed with respect to potential ramifications. However, I find it somehow weird that we only ever measure success along one axis. Moreover, these students often serve as facilitators, making it easier for others to finish projects. Navigating this precarious space is not an easy task for me, I admit that.

periheli0n 5y ago
> as a PI, I also have an option to reward these sort of activities. But honestly, your options are very limited, especially in Germany. You cannot pay them more, and you also cannot offer them a permanent employment contract. Most of the time it’s even hard to extend an existing contract. You can perhaps send them to nice conferences, but then you would send the principal author to the conference, too. But I totally agree that academia fails at rewarding people who facilitate the work of others. There is some perversion to this, since the key part of academia is precisely to spread and exchange knowledge. In this light it is funny to see that in many universities (especially in Germany) teaching is not valued much for career progression.
- Topolomancer 5y ago
  Your comment is spot on. > But I totally agree that academia fails at rewarding people who facilitate the work of others. There is some perversion to this, since the key part of academia is precisely to spread and exchange knowledge. Yes. I saw quite a few talented people turn the backs on a career in academia for exactly this reason. > In this light it is funny to see that in many universities (especially in Germany) teaching is not valued much for career progression. Also yes---but that part is at least changing a little bit (even though the predominant thinking is still 'Yeah, who cares?') in the younger generation of PIs.
  - periheli0n 5y ago
    > that part is at least changing a little bit (even though the predominant thinking is still 'Yeah, who cares?') in the younger generation of PIs. Things are changing extremely slowly in academia. It’s always the old faculty that decides who becomes new faculty, and their decisions tend to be very conservative. What’s worse, I have seen very progressive young PIs become complacent and conservative once they had tenure. I wouldn’t bet on academia changing its tenure criteria.
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      One thing that’s happening is that different roles are being created. For example at UPenn it’s now possible to get tenure as a teaching professor.
    - Topolomancer 5y ago
      > What’s worse, I have seen very progressive young PIs become complacent and conservative once they had tenure. That's what I am worried about in myself, having seen this in others as well. I'll try to be more introspective. > I wouldn’t bet on academia changing its tenure criteria. No, I am not doing that either, but in this case, there's always the 'War Games' games response: 'A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.'
- oogali 5y ago
  > But I totally agree that academia fails at rewarding people who facilitate the work of others. There is some perversion to this, since the key part of academia is precisely to spread and exchange knowledge. What you’re describing is glue work[1]. Until recently, glue work tended to be invisible and unappreciated across a good majority of the industry. While it’s starting to get visibility, there still isn’t consensus on how to recognize it and/or reward it. 1: https://noidea.dog/glue https://noidea.dog/glue

periheli0n 5y ago

> as a PI, I also have an option to reward these sort of activities. But honestly, your options are very limited, especially in Germany. You cannot pay them more, and you also cannot offer them a permanent employment contract. Most of the time it’s even hard to extend an existing contract. You can perhaps send them to nice conferences, but then you would send the principal author to the conference, too. But I totally agree that academia fails at rewarding people who facilitate the work of others. There is some perversion to this, since the key part of academia is precisely to spread and exchange knowledge. In this light it is funny to see that in many universities (especially in Germany) teaching is not valued much for career progression.

Topolomancer 5y ago
Your comment is spot on. > But I totally agree that academia fails at rewarding people who facilitate the work of others. There is some perversion to this, since the key part of academia is precisely to spread and exchange knowledge. Yes. I saw quite a few talented people turn the backs on a career in academia for exactly this reason. > In this light it is funny to see that in many universities (especially in Germany) teaching is not valued much for career progression. Also yes---but that part is at least changing a little bit (even though the predominant thinking is still 'Yeah, who cares?') in the younger generation of PIs.
- periheli0n 5y ago
  > that part is at least changing a little bit (even though the predominant thinking is still 'Yeah, who cares?') in the younger generation of PIs. Things are changing extremely slowly in academia. It’s always the old faculty that decides who becomes new faculty, and their decisions tend to be very conservative. What’s worse, I have seen very progressive young PIs become complacent and conservative once they had tenure. I wouldn’t bet on academia changing its tenure criteria.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    One thing that’s happening is that different roles are being created. For example at UPenn it’s now possible to get tenure as a teaching professor.
  - Topolomancer 5y ago
    > What’s worse, I have seen very progressive young PIs become complacent and conservative once they had tenure. That's what I am worried about in myself, having seen this in others as well. I'll try to be more introspective. > I wouldn’t bet on academia changing its tenure criteria. No, I am not doing that either, but in this case, there's always the 'War Games' games response: 'A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.'
oogali 5y ago
> But I totally agree that academia fails at rewarding people who facilitate the work of others. There is some perversion to this, since the key part of academia is precisely to spread and exchange knowledge. What you’re describing is glue work[1]. Until recently, glue work tended to be invisible and unappreciated across a good majority of the industry. While it’s starting to get visibility, there still isn’t consensus on how to recognize it and/or reward it. 1: https://noidea.dog/glue https://noidea.dog/glue