8 ms·

Marie Kondo and the craze for minimalism (2020)

42 points by lxm 5y ago

jacob019 5y ago
I have drastically minimalized over the last couple years. I sold my stupid big house, now I rent. I got rid of most of my stuff. I have minimal furniture, empty walls, I started biking everywhere instead of driving. I am much happier.
- hammyhavoc 5y ago
  What I've noticed is this: People who own "everything", including owning a house, plenty of belongings, a car et al, are more happy to pursue minimalism. People who own "nothing", including renting a house, not much in the way of belongings or a car, are more likely to pursue maximalism. I think what we can establish from it is that people want different things at different times of life in different circumstances. What suits a young person who loves to travel doesn't necessarily suit someone with a family of their own. What demographic do you fall under?
  - jacob019 5y ago
    I am in my 30's, am married, have a first grader, I love to travel but don't get the chance much these days. I agree with your points, different tokes for different blokes, just wanted to share my experience.
    - sjtindell 5y ago
      You have a wife and a kid and yet just rent, have minimal furniture and empty walls? How does that work? My partner loves making spaces “cute” and need some plants, art, etc. which I’ve come to appreciate.
      - jacob019 5y ago
        It works for us. Our daughter's room is probably the most decorated part of our our home. My wife loves gardening, but has found new hobbies. She doesn't share my enthusiasm for minimalism, but she has embraced it and is also happier these days. Caring for a big house was like having a 2nd job. There were nice parts, but I don't miss it. We have a nice home, we just try not to fill it with stuff. I know it isn't for everyone but I like the clean minimal aesthetic, it's calming. Renting is a luxury in some ways. Now that we don't spend as much time on the nest, we have time for other things, and much less stress.
      - jandrewrogers 5y ago
        Some people prefer to rent. It has distinct advantages and in big cities you can often rent beautiful places that you'd never be able to buy. You can have plants, art, etc in a lovely minimalist space that doesn't need a lot of stuff to be inviting and livable. I don't understand why it wouldn't work with a wife and kid. Owning a place doesn't change that. Renting does not imply a shoebox apartment or a mediocre house in the suburbs.
        jhbadger 5y ago
        In a lot of developed countries (Germany, for example) renting is as common or more than buying. It's pretty much America that has this stigma that associates renting with not being successful.
        sjtindell 5y ago
        When I think of adding additional people it adds stuff - now you need space for three or more people’s hobbies, preferences, etc. and when I think of renting I think smaller spaces.
        prmoustache 5y ago
        That's usually the point. I´ve moved something like 12 times in my life, as a kid, as a young adult, maried man with kids, now divorced one with shared custody. I've lived in studios, appartments, houses, most rented but 2 owned. My conclusion is whatever space you have you might end up using all of it and only because it is available, not because you are using all that shit. I got back to renting close to a large city center because I wanted to get rid of cars and be able to go anywhere with my bicycle, have the kids walk to school , to their friends place or outside without me having to drive them left and right. Leaving in family do not mean you need so much things/space, hobbies don't have to require space. Also a lot of things can be shared with neighbors.
  - Thorentis 5y ago
    I also find that people tend to enjoy things more when they aren't forced upon them. For instance, people who can afford to buy and maintain a house enjoy not buying one and living minimally, whereas people who can't afford to buy one wish that they could. Minimalism, ironically, is pursued almost entirely be rich people.
    - hammyhavoc 5y ago
      Astute observation!
    - redisman 5y ago
      I don’t think I’ve ever seen a minimalist with a cheap Ikea coffee table and a 10 year old laptop. I’m sure some exist but for any that bother posting about it online it seems like an excuse to buy expensive things that align with the “aesthetic”. I barely own anything! Except this Herman Miller armchair and this 2022 MacBook Pro and this set of hand blown Japanese drinking glasses and this $2000 rug.
      - jdavis703 5y ago
        There’s nothing wrong with having a few high-priced objects vs. many cheaply priced ones. My dad has maybe a dozen desktop PCs. I have just one laptop, but my 1 MacBook is probably the same cost as several of his PCs.
        redisman 5y ago
        Sure, I mainly meant that if someone posts their minimalist stack and it’s a mattress on the floor and a cardboard box with a old ugly computer on it, they’ll most likely get made fun of at best even if they’re actually embodying more of the tenets of “minimalism”. Basically it’s just a classier version of consumerism unless you do it in a very unsexy way
        prmoustache 5y ago
        I won't go into the PC/MacBook debate but there is a thing about having less, but expensive and durable products, than tons of shit that keeps breaking down and being replaced.
  - Ostrogodsky 5y ago
    I used to own a lot and now I have almost nothing (not by choice), and I still prefer it that way. Money, big properties, even cars bring lots of headaches and worries that I am not so sure are really compensated by the upsides. I am not trying to be edgy here, of course having money is better than starving but I am pretty sure that most people could cut their "ideally fuck you money" amount down to 20-25% and still be very happy, saving the time and miseries of trying to get the other 75%. I was there, I risked a lot trying to get that other 75%, lost almost everything and now I realize I could have perfectly retired with what I originally had, by just implementing a few POSITIVE lifestyle changes. I am not preaching here, every life is different but that has been my experience.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Jansen312 5y ago
    It is more like reaching nirvana and enlightenment stage. When you're young probably fire is fascinating until you touch it and got burnt. People who own "everything" and go for minimalism have seen they really don't need those. People who has nothing hasn't realized they they are blessed already (a bit like Alchemist) and decide to embark a long and ardous journey to hoard as much as possible. They end up worry about their "things" and never got to enjoy it. They end up taken so much debt for the junks they acquire from a big eastern country. Is like Tiger Woods, go on satisfying his libido in the process destroy his family as he seek the plessure he lost his happiness. Junks hoarded are exactly like Tiger's sensual escapedes, ephemeral and yet extremely addictive...and destructive.
    - birtoise 5y ago
  - kingcharles 5y ago
    I own (almost) literally nothing except my laptop and mobile phone that I bought with my pandemic stimulus cheque and a bunch of random clothes strangers gave me or I found in the trash. Yet, every day I seek to minimalize my life as physical things just cause clutter and my brain stops functioning when there is too much clutter around me.
- hanselot 5y ago
- acchow 5y ago
  I noticed that people who have the ability to have either everything or very little can be happier having very little. People who don't have the financial means to have anything they want may not get the same joy out of having very little. Someone once told me that there are some homeless people in Berkeley who actually have trust funds but find the homeless experience liberating. Not sure how true that is.
  - jdavis703 5y ago
    They’re probably thinking of this wrong. Some people may indeed have trust funds. But the funds come with strings: stop doing drugs, stop being gay, go in to the family business, etc. The liberation is having an autonomous life from controlling family, not the act of being homeless.
  - season2episode3 5y ago
    I can see that urban legend catching on for the same reason that "welfare queens" did.
- mcbishop 5y ago
  I had a closet full of clothes that I mostly didn't like. Now I have one pair of clothes I wear almost every day, and one backup pair for laundry day. I love every item I have. This is much better for me, and I don't smell bad. I suspect most people don't realize that I'm always in the same clothes.
  - iLoveOncall 5y ago
    > and I don't smell bad You think you don't smell bad.
AIorNot 5y ago
Grass is always greener, but Americans do have too much stuff -spending many afternoons clearing out years of waterlogged clutter from American homes with hurricane damage taught me how much useless crap we have, so much so that luxury storage unit rental are a big business here.. Of course when I meet friends living in small urban apartments in Europe they often reflect longingly on the Subaran American lifestyle with its home theater rooms, endless garages etc…
zachwill 5y ago
This is a pretty poorly written article — even for Saturday night Hacker News. “Simplicity hides complexity, and Marie Kondo sucks, and 2010s minimalist blogging sucked, and Apple sucks for removing the headphone jack, and the internet cables in the sea are messy.” C’mon. This is just poorly written and a bunch of scattershot ideas. It’s always a tug-of-war between owning too much and not enough — and I’m a big proponent of purges every 18 months. The half-life for most of the stuff we own is much less than a decade. Did Marie Kondo market her book? Yeah. Does she have some good ideas? Yeah. Should you be a minimalist zealot? No.
- ggm 5y ago
  Its a precis of a book. It might be, the precis sucks and the book is good? It's on kindle. A bit pricey but I might try it.
  - putnambr 5y ago
    Your local library no doubt has a copy. It's an enjoyable book.
  - number6 5y ago
    It's on Spotify if you like audiobooks
  - Jansen312 5y ago
    Watch her TV series. It is better at illustrating how her principle works in real life. A lot of Americans have hoarding problem. This is relatively an American phenomenon where they own big abode and higher purchasing power than the rest. It is quite good assuming you have and realize hoarding problem. Otherwise, as the saying goes, she can only explain it to you but can't understand for you.
- birtoise 5y ago
oidar 5y ago
I think that there is a certain level of "living with" complexity that people are capable of handling until they fall back on fast thinking systems. For example, the complexity of the cereal aisle or picking a new show to watch on netflix, picking a new person to date on an app - once there is an overwhelm that requires deep thinking to solve a problem, a person defaults to an intuitive internal model to solve the problem. The cereal box with the fruit on it doesn't tell the whole story, the show with 5 stars is actually not a good show for you, that person might have a great smile - but be a horrible partner. This leads to sub-optimal choices for many things from getting a car loan, picking the healthiest food at a restaurant, marrying someone that has is toxic. All this is to say, American's feel as at least their living space is under their control and able to be simplified. And so the appeal of minimalism.
vanusa 5y ago
Minimalism can work, if you like minimalism. Plainly the author, from his writing style, does not.
aprao 5y ago
I think the Marie Kondo fad is overblown and might be a result of 1) excessive need for direction/hand-holding in all aspects of life and 2) the west's weird obsession with anything Japanese. That being said, Marie Kondo herself does not espouse minimalism. Personally speaking, having fewer things has contributed to better mental health, although it obviously is not true for all people.
dleslie 5y ago
What matters, I find, is how you answer two questions: 1. Are you buying for future need and enjoyment, or is the act of buying the enjoyment you crave? 2. Are those things in storage realistically going to see any use in the next year, or do you simply hope they will?
ausbah 5y ago
on kondo I always had the impression that "remove that which doesn't spark joy" is similar but still different from minimalism both say there is more meaning from less stuff, but the latter is less of everything while the former is more of "less stuff you don't care about"
- hobs 5y ago
  Almost none of the stuff people have sparks joy but it is often useful and effective for solving their problems, its just weird advice to me - my comb doesn't spark joy - should I throw it away or spend a long time finding a new "joy sparking comb"? Objects don't have to be imbued with special meaning all the time.
  - LiquidSky 5y ago
    The "sparks joy" part gets the most attention, but if you read her actual writing her advice is keeping things that are useful OR "sparks joy". That is, she's just saying to really think about your stuff and consider whether it's actually either useful to you or something you like. If it's neither, then consider whether you really need it.
  - sjtindell 5y ago
    She is just saying that not all things need to be functional. It’s okay to keep something you never “use” if it makes you happy.
  - jdavis703 5y ago
    To be reductionist, the only items in my house that spark joy are alcohol and maybe one or two pills. But to be fair, consider a form of mindfulness called negative visualization. In other words how would you feel if you lose everything (say in a fire). If you had no comb, and your hair were a tangled mess would you feel the opposite of joy? Likewise there’s almost certainly stuff you wouldn’t replace if your house burned down. Maybe you bought a blender or weights for a long forgotten New Years resolution that’s now gathering dust. That’s what Kondo wants you to discard.
Barrin92 5y ago
I honestly have a pretty negative attitude towards minimalism for two reasons that the article points to as well. One is that it's like a sort of lifestyle veganism, a social signifier for whatever the local upper caste is, the mentioned 'digital minimalism' I see a lot in that context, pretending to be Steve Jobs, adopting some watered down version of meditation often comes with the package etc.. Second function I think is also pretty bad is as a sort of neurotic attempt to impose order or self-optimize, Marie Kondo tells you where every towel goes and then all your stress goes away. In some cultures you'd have a feng shui consultant come and rearrange your furniture and the western secular version is hiring the minimalism assistant. In that sense I think people are mostly consumers of minimalism as a replacement for whatever else they were consuming, it's not actually about cutting useless stuff out which doesn't need an *-ism because it's a banal wisdom you find in every religious book on page 2. Other example of this phenomenon btw is note-taking apps. There appears to be a non-trivial amount of people who are so obsessed with the process of note-taking they spend more time optimizing note-taking than they take actual notes, or do something to write about.
- nexuist 5y ago
  > Other example of this phenomenon btw is note-taking apps. There appears to be a non-trivial amount of people who are so obsessed with the process of note-taking they spend more time optimizing note-taking than they take actual notes, or do something to write about. Yes! This and the "life management systems" that seem to be a popular trend on HN, seem to ignore the fact that people with messy lives are often just doing more than people who spend all their time cleaning up loose ends. At a certain point there is no value to cleanliness if there isn't any increased productivity to show for it.
  - catach 5y ago
    > At a certain point there is no value to cleanliness if there isn't any increased productivity to show for it. "Productivity" isn't the only value that matters.
- gonehome 5y ago
  My take on Marie Kondo was people were more willing to listen to an outsider that told them to get rid of old things and clean up their house than someone they knew. If your local friend came over and said “clean up your shit” you’d just ignore them. But when Marie Kondo asks what items spark joy (with some subtext of eastern wisdom) - suddenly it’s statusy to listen. Western people have been joining dumb cults and gurus for decades for similar reasons, at least this variation is less harmful than average.
rib3ye 5y ago
All these opinions aside, organizing my shirts in the style she suggests has brought much improvement to my morning: I can see them all and it has become obviously which ones I am not wearing, making them easier to throw away.
- causi 5y ago
  My life became much easier when I adopted a "work uniform" and can just grab any pair of pants and any shirt out of the work section of my closet, reducing my morning cognitive load to zero. I can get ready for work in the dark if I want.
faangiq 5y ago
trabant00 5y ago
Any philosophical system for living becomes a caricature when it goes fashinable. It then falls victim to "more is beter", virtue signaling and/or Goodhart's Law. Not living a clutered life is of course beneficial. One can get the 80/20 benefits by doing an anual clearing of old unused stuff. But that's just normal and brings no sense of superiority, no chance to brag, to share on social media or to form religious like groups. Common sense minimalism (or if you want to be a smartass "minimal minimalism") also does not sell books, seminars, consulting, etc. It's the same as Agile or healthy eating or whatever else system. It becomes ridiculous by being marketed.
jaarse 5y ago
Marie Kondo’s systems work great for a small segment of the population, but not for everyone else. For most it is more aspirational, than attainable. For everyone else I’d recommend checking out Clutterbug: http://clutterbug.com http://clutterbug.com This is the organizing system featured in HGTV’s Hot Mess House. (Full disclosure: I am related to the founder of Clutterbug as well)
LiquidSky 5y ago
I'll never understand the peculiar mania Kondo seems to induce in people who seemingly willfully misunderstand or misrepresent her. Even in this thread you have people who have clearly never read what she's actually written or said but are attacking her based on vague things they've heard. She's not preaching minimalism, or any particular aesthetic at all. She's just saying to really think about your stuff and consider whether it's actually either useful to you or something you like. If it's neither, then consider whether you really need it. But that's up to the individual. If they find they like or need their spaces filled with things, great. If they like a minimalist space, also great. Whatever works for them. She just urges you to seriously think about your possessions and your living space, because it's so easily to mindlessly accumulate without really considering how you want to live.
nicbou 5y ago
I was into minimalism and saw the rise ift Marie Kondo. It had a mininal impact on the related communities in my opinion. It just gave them useful vocabulary for existing practices. I slowly lost interest because minimalist communities had an unhealthy put object count above practicality. It became "the minimum" instead of "just the right amount". Minimalist content creators also hit a wall when their practices were at odds with affiliate-based monetisation. It's hard to pocket a commission without selling something.

42 points by lxm 5y ago

I have drastically minimalized over the last couple years. I sold my stupid big house, now I rent. I got rid of most of my stuff. I have minimal furniture, empty walls, I started biking everywhere instead of driving. I am much happier.

hammyhavoc 5y ago
What I've noticed is this: People who own "everything", including owning a house, plenty of belongings, a car et al, are more happy to pursue minimalism. People who own "nothing", including renting a house, not much in the way of belongings or a car, are more likely to pursue maximalism. I think what we can establish from it is that people want different things at different times of life in different circumstances. What suits a young person who loves to travel doesn't necessarily suit someone with a family of their own. What demographic do you fall under?
- jacob019 5y ago
  I am in my 30's, am married, have a first grader, I love to travel but don't get the chance much these days. I agree with your points, different tokes for different blokes, just wanted to share my experience.
  - sjtindell 5y ago
    You have a wife and a kid and yet just rent, have minimal furniture and empty walls? How does that work? My partner loves making spaces “cute” and need some plants, art, etc. which I’ve come to appreciate.
    - jacob019 5y ago
      It works for us. Our daughter's room is probably the most decorated part of our our home. My wife loves gardening, but has found new hobbies. She doesn't share my enthusiasm for minimalism, but she has embraced it and is also happier these days. Caring for a big house was like having a 2nd job. There were nice parts, but I don't miss it. We have a nice home, we just try not to fill it with stuff. I know it isn't for everyone but I like the clean minimal aesthetic, it's calming. Renting is a luxury in some ways. Now that we don't spend as much time on the nest, we have time for other things, and much less stress.
    - jandrewrogers 5y ago
      Some people prefer to rent. It has distinct advantages and in big cities you can often rent beautiful places that you'd never be able to buy. You can have plants, art, etc in a lovely minimalist space that doesn't need a lot of stuff to be inviting and livable. I don't understand why it wouldn't work with a wife and kid. Owning a place doesn't change that. Renting does not imply a shoebox apartment or a mediocre house in the suburbs.
      - jhbadger 5y ago
        In a lot of developed countries (Germany, for example) renting is as common or more than buying. It's pretty much America that has this stigma that associates renting with not being successful.
      - sjtindell 5y ago
        When I think of adding additional people it adds stuff - now you need space for three or more people’s hobbies, preferences, etc. and when I think of renting I think smaller spaces.
        prmoustache 5y ago
        That's usually the point. I´ve moved something like 12 times in my life, as a kid, as a young adult, maried man with kids, now divorced one with shared custody. I've lived in studios, appartments, houses, most rented but 2 owned. My conclusion is whatever space you have you might end up using all of it and only because it is available, not because you are using all that shit. I got back to renting close to a large city center because I wanted to get rid of cars and be able to go anywhere with my bicycle, have the kids walk to school , to their friends place or outside without me having to drive them left and right. Leaving in family do not mean you need so much things/space, hobbies don't have to require space. Also a lot of things can be shared with neighbors.
- Thorentis 5y ago
  I also find that people tend to enjoy things more when they aren't forced upon them. For instance, people who can afford to buy and maintain a house enjoy not buying one and living minimally, whereas people who can't afford to buy one wish that they could. Minimalism, ironically, is pursued almost entirely be rich people.
  - hammyhavoc 5y ago
    Astute observation!
  - redisman 5y ago
    I don’t think I’ve ever seen a minimalist with a cheap Ikea coffee table and a 10 year old laptop. I’m sure some exist but for any that bother posting about it online it seems like an excuse to buy expensive things that align with the “aesthetic”. I barely own anything! Except this Herman Miller armchair and this 2022 MacBook Pro and this set of hand blown Japanese drinking glasses and this $2000 rug.
    - jdavis703 5y ago
      There’s nothing wrong with having a few high-priced objects vs. many cheaply priced ones. My dad has maybe a dozen desktop PCs. I have just one laptop, but my 1 MacBook is probably the same cost as several of his PCs.
      - redisman 5y ago
        Sure, I mainly meant that if someone posts their minimalist stack and it’s a mattress on the floor and a cardboard box with a old ugly computer on it, they’ll most likely get made fun of at best even if they’re actually embodying more of the tenets of “minimalism”. Basically it’s just a classier version of consumerism unless you do it in a very unsexy way
      - prmoustache 5y ago
        I won't go into the PC/MacBook debate but there is a thing about having less, but expensive and durable products, than tons of shit that keeps breaking down and being replaced.
- Ostrogodsky 5y ago
  I used to own a lot and now I have almost nothing (not by choice), and I still prefer it that way. Money, big properties, even cars bring lots of headaches and worries that I am not so sure are really compensated by the upsides. I am not trying to be edgy here, of course having money is better than starving but I am pretty sure that most people could cut their "ideally fuck you money" amount down to 20-25% and still be very happy, saving the time and miseries of trying to get the other 75%. I was there, I risked a lot trying to get that other 75%, lost almost everything and now I realize I could have perfectly retired with what I originally had, by just implementing a few POSITIVE lifestyle changes. I am not preaching here, every life is different but that has been my experience.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Jansen312 5y ago
  It is more like reaching nirvana and enlightenment stage. When you're young probably fire is fascinating until you touch it and got burnt. People who own "everything" and go for minimalism have seen they really don't need those. People who has nothing hasn't realized they they are blessed already (a bit like Alchemist) and decide to embark a long and ardous journey to hoard as much as possible. They end up worry about their "things" and never got to enjoy it. They end up taken so much debt for the junks they acquire from a big eastern country. Is like Tiger Woods, go on satisfying his libido in the process destroy his family as he seek the plessure he lost his happiness. Junks hoarded are exactly like Tiger's sensual escapedes, ephemeral and yet extremely addictive...and destructive.
  - birtoise 5y ago
- kingcharles 5y ago
  I own (almost) literally nothing except my laptop and mobile phone that I bought with my pandemic stimulus cheque and a bunch of random clothes strangers gave me or I found in the trash. Yet, every day I seek to minimalize my life as physical things just cause clutter and my brain stops functioning when there is too much clutter around me.
hanselot 5y ago
acchow 5y ago
I noticed that people who have the ability to have either everything or very little can be happier having very little. People who don't have the financial means to have anything they want may not get the same joy out of having very little. Someone once told me that there are some homeless people in Berkeley who actually have trust funds but find the homeless experience liberating. Not sure how true that is.
- jdavis703 5y ago
  They’re probably thinking of this wrong. Some people may indeed have trust funds. But the funds come with strings: stop doing drugs, stop being gay, go in to the family business, etc. The liberation is having an autonomous life from controlling family, not the act of being homeless.
- season2episode3 5y ago
  I can see that urban legend catching on for the same reason that "welfare queens" did.
mcbishop 5y ago
I had a closet full of clothes that I mostly didn't like. Now I have one pair of clothes I wear almost every day, and one backup pair for laundry day. I love every item I have. This is much better for me, and I don't smell bad. I suspect most people don't realize that I'm always in the same clothes.
- iLoveOncall 5y ago
  > and I don't smell bad You think you don't smell bad.

AIorNot 5y ago

Grass is always greener, but Americans do have too much stuff -spending many afternoons clearing out years of waterlogged clutter from American homes with hurricane damage taught me how much useless crap we have, so much so that luxury storage unit rental are a big business here.. Of course when I meet friends living in small urban apartments in Europe they often reflect longingly on the Subaran American lifestyle with its home theater rooms, endless garages etc…

zachwill 5y ago

This is a pretty poorly written article — even for Saturday night Hacker News. “Simplicity hides complexity, and Marie Kondo sucks, and 2010s minimalist blogging sucked, and Apple sucks for removing the headphone jack, and the internet cables in the sea are messy.” C’mon. This is just poorly written and a bunch of scattershot ideas. It’s always a tug-of-war between owning too much and not enough — and I’m a big proponent of purges every 18 months. The half-life for most of the stuff we own is much less than a decade. Did Marie Kondo market her book? Yeah. Does she have some good ideas? Yeah. Should you be a minimalist zealot? No.

ggm 5y ago
Its a precis of a book. It might be, the precis sucks and the book is good? It's on kindle. A bit pricey but I might try it.
- putnambr 5y ago
  Your local library no doubt has a copy. It's an enjoyable book.
- number6 5y ago
  It's on Spotify if you like audiobooks
- Jansen312 5y ago
  Watch her TV series. It is better at illustrating how her principle works in real life. A lot of Americans have hoarding problem. This is relatively an American phenomenon where they own big abode and higher purchasing power than the rest. It is quite good assuming you have and realize hoarding problem. Otherwise, as the saying goes, she can only explain it to you but can't understand for you.
birtoise 5y ago

oidar 5y ago

I think that there is a certain level of "living with" complexity that people are capable of handling until they fall back on fast thinking systems. For example, the complexity of the cereal aisle or picking a new show to watch on netflix, picking a new person to date on an app - once there is an overwhelm that requires deep thinking to solve a problem, a person defaults to an intuitive internal model to solve the problem. The cereal box with the fruit on it doesn't tell the whole story, the show with 5 stars is actually not a good show for you, that person might have a great smile - but be a horrible partner. This leads to sub-optimal choices for many things from getting a car loan, picking the healthiest food at a restaurant, marrying someone that has is toxic. All this is to say, American's feel as at least their living space is under their control and able to be simplified. And so the appeal of minimalism.

vanusa 5y ago

Minimalism can work, if you like minimalism. Plainly the author, from his writing style, does not.

aprao 5y ago

I think the Marie Kondo fad is overblown and might be a result of 1) excessive need for direction/hand-holding in all aspects of life and 2) the west's weird obsession with anything Japanese. That being said, Marie Kondo herself does not espouse minimalism. Personally speaking, having fewer things has contributed to better mental health, although it obviously is not true for all people.

dleslie 5y ago

What matters, I find, is how you answer two questions: 1. Are you buying for future need and enjoyment, or is the act of buying the enjoyment you crave? 2. Are those things in storage realistically going to see any use in the next year, or do you simply hope they will?

ausbah 5y ago

on kondo I always had the impression that "remove that which doesn't spark joy" is similar but still different from minimalism both say there is more meaning from less stuff, but the latter is less of everything while the former is more of "less stuff you don't care about"

hobs 5y ago
Almost none of the stuff people have sparks joy but it is often useful and effective for solving their problems, its just weird advice to me - my comb doesn't spark joy - should I throw it away or spend a long time finding a new "joy sparking comb"? Objects don't have to be imbued with special meaning all the time.
- LiquidSky 5y ago
  The "sparks joy" part gets the most attention, but if you read her actual writing her advice is keeping things that are useful OR "sparks joy". That is, she's just saying to really think about your stuff and consider whether it's actually either useful to you or something you like. If it's neither, then consider whether you really need it.
- sjtindell 5y ago
  She is just saying that not all things need to be functional. It’s okay to keep something you never “use” if it makes you happy.
- jdavis703 5y ago
  To be reductionist, the only items in my house that spark joy are alcohol and maybe one or two pills. But to be fair, consider a form of mindfulness called negative visualization. In other words how would you feel if you lose everything (say in a fire). If you had no comb, and your hair were a tangled mess would you feel the opposite of joy? Likewise there’s almost certainly stuff you wouldn’t replace if your house burned down. Maybe you bought a blender or weights for a long forgotten New Years resolution that’s now gathering dust. That’s what Kondo wants you to discard.

Barrin92 5y ago

I honestly have a pretty negative attitude towards minimalism for two reasons that the article points to as well. One is that it's like a sort of lifestyle veganism, a social signifier for whatever the local upper caste is, the mentioned 'digital minimalism' I see a lot in that context, pretending to be Steve Jobs, adopting some watered down version of meditation often comes with the package etc.. Second function I think is also pretty bad is as a sort of neurotic attempt to impose order or self-optimize, Marie Kondo tells you where every towel goes and then all your stress goes away. In some cultures you'd have a feng shui consultant come and rearrange your furniture and the western secular version is hiring the minimalism assistant. In that sense I think people are mostly consumers of minimalism as a replacement for whatever else they were consuming, it's not actually about cutting useless stuff out which doesn't need an *-ism because it's a banal wisdom you find in every religious book on page 2. Other example of this phenomenon btw is note-taking apps. There appears to be a non-trivial amount of people who are so obsessed with the process of note-taking they spend more time optimizing note-taking than they take actual notes, or do something to write about.

nexuist 5y ago
> Other example of this phenomenon btw is note-taking apps. There appears to be a non-trivial amount of people who are so obsessed with the process of note-taking they spend more time optimizing note-taking than they take actual notes, or do something to write about. Yes! This and the "life management systems" that seem to be a popular trend on HN, seem to ignore the fact that people with messy lives are often just doing more than people who spend all their time cleaning up loose ends. At a certain point there is no value to cleanliness if there isn't any increased productivity to show for it.
- catach 5y ago
  > At a certain point there is no value to cleanliness if there isn't any increased productivity to show for it. "Productivity" isn't the only value that matters.
gonehome 5y ago
My take on Marie Kondo was people were more willing to listen to an outsider that told them to get rid of old things and clean up their house than someone they knew. If your local friend came over and said “clean up your shit” you’d just ignore them. But when Marie Kondo asks what items spark joy (with some subtext of eastern wisdom) - suddenly it’s statusy to listen. Western people have been joining dumb cults and gurus for decades for similar reasons, at least this variation is less harmful than average.

rib3ye 5y ago

All these opinions aside, organizing my shirts in the style she suggests has brought much improvement to my morning: I can see them all and it has become obviously which ones I am not wearing, making them easier to throw away.

causi 5y ago
My life became much easier when I adopted a "work uniform" and can just grab any pair of pants and any shirt out of the work section of my closet, reducing my morning cognitive load to zero. I can get ready for work in the dark if I want.

faangiq 5y ago

trabant00 5y ago

Any philosophical system for living becomes a caricature when it goes fashinable. It then falls victim to "more is beter", virtue signaling and/or Goodhart's Law. Not living a clutered life is of course beneficial. One can get the 80/20 benefits by doing an anual clearing of old unused stuff. But that's just normal and brings no sense of superiority, no chance to brag, to share on social media or to form religious like groups. Common sense minimalism (or if you want to be a smartass "minimal minimalism") also does not sell books, seminars, consulting, etc. It's the same as Agile or healthy eating or whatever else system. It becomes ridiculous by being marketed.

jaarse 5y ago

Marie Kondo’s systems work great for a small segment of the population, but not for everyone else. For most it is more aspirational, than attainable. For everyone else I’d recommend checking out Clutterbug: http://clutterbug.com http://clutterbug.com This is the organizing system featured in HGTV’s Hot Mess House. (Full disclosure: I am related to the founder of Clutterbug as well)

LiquidSky 5y ago

I'll never understand the peculiar mania Kondo seems to induce in people who seemingly willfully misunderstand or misrepresent her. Even in this thread you have people who have clearly never read what she's actually written or said but are attacking her based on vague things they've heard. She's not preaching minimalism, or any particular aesthetic at all. She's just saying to really think about your stuff and consider whether it's actually either useful to you or something you like. If it's neither, then consider whether you really need it. But that's up to the individual. If they find they like or need their spaces filled with things, great. If they like a minimalist space, also great. Whatever works for them. She just urges you to seriously think about your possessions and your living space, because it's so easily to mindlessly accumulate without really considering how you want to live.

nicbou 5y ago

I was into minimalism and saw the rise ift Marie Kondo. It had a mininal impact on the related communities in my opinion. It just gave them useful vocabulary for existing practices. I slowly lost interest because minimalist communities had an unhealthy put object count above practicality. It became "the minimum" instead of "just the right amount". Minimalist content creators also hit a wall when their practices were at odds with affiliate-based monetisation. It's hard to pocket a commission without selling something.