4 ms·

Carbon pollution is not just a one-time cost, it is a debt that carries a massive interest rate with it that will be paid for generations. So whatever benefits

Carbon pollution is not just a one-time cost, it is a debt that carries a massive interest rate with it that will be paid for generations. So whatever benefits someone else might reap from Bitcoin, it certainly isn't worth it to me.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
People use way more energy for dumb heating. In my region humans can't survive in winter without it. There is no reason why mining rigs can't be used for 'smart' heating, heat being a byproduct of mining. It is not done currently only because the energy use of bitcoin is so miniscule compared to other uses, that it's not even worthy to bother yet. Down the road, it'll likely change, but currently complaints about 'massive costs to the environment' are mostly virtue signalling.
- SantalBlush 5y ago
  If the energy use of bitcoin was minuscule while heating a building, and it could generate mining rewards while doing so, then people would be using it for that purpose. They aren't.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    People absolutely do use bitcoin mining for heating. It's just not yet popular enough, and it makes sense only in certain climates.
    - SantalBlush 5y ago
      That's my point. It's not popular because it's not economically viable in many cases. So heating buildings is another thing that Bitcoin is supposed to improve, except it really doesn't.
      - notch656a 5y ago
        Why do you think it would be less economically viable to use mining for rewards + heating rather than just rewards? It's both economically advantageous and arguably slightly less pollutive to offset energy consumption used for heating.
        SantalBlush 5y ago
        Because professional Bitcoin miners--the ones who are actually getting rewards--are not using rigs in their homes. They make more money by using industrial-level setups, buildings dedicated to mining that are located where the energy, taxes, laws, etc. are most favorable. These miners are the ones making the actual money from Bitcoin, not the hobbyists running a home rig who never mine a single block before their hardware is ruined. Home rigs do not compete with industrial setups on cost, not even when taking heating into account. "Smart heating" is just one more example of where Bitcoin in theory does not match Bitcoin in reality.
        notch656a 5y ago
        That's a fair point, but isn't your beef with externalities associated with electricity not electricity itself? Blaming bitcoin sound like whack-a-mole where you can blame video games, AI, whatever for wasting electricity. The real problem IMO is that electricity consumers create negative externalities, be it from making their home a bit too warm and comfy or from using a crypto-currency instead of a gold bar.
        SantalBlush 5y ago
        I think when people complain about emissions from Bitcoin, their beef is really with both energy emissions and Bitcoin. If our energy production did not pollute, then I wouldn't care how much people mine it, but as things are now, it seems wasteful. It is often considered more wasteful than those other things you listed because the mining algorithm is designed to be wasteful; i.e., if people design faster mining chips, it doesn't make anything more efficient or increase economic growth, it just causes the hashing difficulty to increase among all miners. That is sheer stupidity.
- 8note 5y ago
  Resistive heating is still dumb heating. Smart heating involves heat concentration, not heat production

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

People use way more energy for dumb heating. In my region humans can't survive in winter without it. There is no reason why mining rigs can't be used for 'smart' heating, heat being a byproduct of mining. It is not done currently only because the energy use of bitcoin is so miniscule compared to other uses, that it's not even worthy to bother yet. Down the road, it'll likely change, but currently complaints about 'massive costs to the environment' are mostly virtue signalling.

SantalBlush 5y ago
If the energy use of bitcoin was minuscule while heating a building, and it could generate mining rewards while doing so, then people would be using it for that purpose. They aren't.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  People absolutely do use bitcoin mining for heating. It's just not yet popular enough, and it makes sense only in certain climates.
  - SantalBlush 5y ago
    That's my point. It's not popular because it's not economically viable in many cases. So heating buildings is another thing that Bitcoin is supposed to improve, except it really doesn't.
    - notch656a 5y ago
      Why do you think it would be less economically viable to use mining for rewards + heating rather than just rewards? It's both economically advantageous and arguably slightly less pollutive to offset energy consumption used for heating.
      - SantalBlush 5y ago
        Because professional Bitcoin miners--the ones who are actually getting rewards--are not using rigs in their homes. They make more money by using industrial-level setups, buildings dedicated to mining that are located where the energy, taxes, laws, etc. are most favorable. These miners are the ones making the actual money from Bitcoin, not the hobbyists running a home rig who never mine a single block before their hardware is ruined. Home rigs do not compete with industrial setups on cost, not even when taking heating into account. "Smart heating" is just one more example of where Bitcoin in theory does not match Bitcoin in reality.
        notch656a 5y ago
        That's a fair point, but isn't your beef with externalities associated with electricity not electricity itself? Blaming bitcoin sound like whack-a-mole where you can blame video games, AI, whatever for wasting electricity. The real problem IMO is that electricity consumers create negative externalities, be it from making their home a bit too warm and comfy or from using a crypto-currency instead of a gold bar.
        SantalBlush 5y ago
        I think when people complain about emissions from Bitcoin, their beef is really with both energy emissions and Bitcoin. If our energy production did not pollute, then I wouldn't care how much people mine it, but as things are now, it seems wasteful. It is often considered more wasteful than those other things you listed because the mining algorithm is designed to be wasteful; i.e., if people design faster mining chips, it doesn't make anything more efficient or increase economic growth, it just causes the hashing difficulty to increase among all miners. That is sheer stupidity.
8note 5y ago
Resistive heating is still dumb heating. Smart heating involves heat concentration, not heat production