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Because that cost is, at least theoretically, offset by additional benefits. I'm not arguing in favor of reduced authority. People seem to conflate decentraliza

Because that cost is, at least theoretically, offset by additional benefits. I'm not arguing in favor of reduced authority. People seem to conflate decentralization with anarchy. I'd like to be able to not even have to think about this happening: https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/pywwnp/how_to_avoid_title_fraud_on_paidoff_home/ https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/pywwnp/how... I'd like to know that when I sell something on Craigslist, the currency I'm receiving for my good isn't counterfeit. I'd like to know that when I receive $50 on Venmo/Paypal out of the blue:(https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/q60vnv/venmo_payment_from_stranger_then_a_request_for/ https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/q60vnv/ven...) I don't have to wonder whether that $50 is legitimate, or about to vanish when Venmo realizes they got scammed. Better hope you didn't send the $50 back to the scammer, because somehow your transaction is more "authentic" than the scammer's, and Venmo's still going to disappear $50 from your account. Oh and if someone writes me a fraudulent check and I cash it out, I'd better have some lawyers ready.

ben_w 5y ago
> People seem to conflate decentralization with anarchy. Heh, I’m sorry I guess I phrased that badly. I’m saying there is an authority in all anarcho-x-isms, one which proponents ignore. My intention was to suggest an analogy of that hidden authority in blockchains, in that everything blockchain can do, can also be done cheaper by having a trusted party do the conventional stuff, and in some cases — such as legal disputes, where you have to bring in a trusted mediator — you end up with all the weaknesses of both the conventional approach and blockchain. > I'd like to be able to not even have to think about this happening: https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/pywwnp/how https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/pywwnp/how... We all would, but blockchains don’t prevent that. If anything it makes the problem more likely, because the current status quo is reversible in a court when sufficient evidence is supplied, but in the blockchain, possession of the private key is ownership. Private keys get lost and stolen all the time even for relatively trivial things; in the case of property ownership, even if the private key is permanently offline — e.g. existing only in the form of a QR code on a sheet of paper in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “Beware of the Leopard” — for something as valuable as property, you can bet it would be stolen. > I'd like to know that when I receive $50 on Venmo/Paypal out of the blue: To which the direct counterpart is: what happens on a blockchain if you get scammed and want your money back? Do you really want the authorities to do what the blockchain says, or do you want your money back?
- grog454 5y ago
  >To which the direct counterpart is: what happens on a blockchain if you get scammed and want your money back? Do you really want the authorities to do what the blockchain says, or do you want your money back? I think you're misunderstanding this particular example. If someone sends me ~$50 BTC out of the blue and then somehow contacts me to say "oops can I have that back?". There are only two options with a block chain: (1) I send it back or (2) I'm up $50. With Venmo, and this has happened to people, there's (3) I send the $50 back, but the original $50 was from a pending deposit that was fraudulent, so Venmo decides I owe Venmo $50, and now I'm down $50, the thief is up $50, and Venmo is square. This will probably come as a tremendous shock to a lot of people in this forum but Venmo is going to look out for itself before it looks out for you. There are many cooperative scams (of multiple people vs Venmo) and it is not always easy for Venmo to determine exactly what is going on or who is scamming who.
  - virgilp 5y ago
    Replace "Venmo" with "Coinbase" and you could have the exact same scenario in the future. "Oops, sorry we messed up, the fraudster's transaction got rejected and he didn't actually send you $50 in BTC like we said he did. What, you already initiated a payment of $50? Tough luck". This is a Venmo problem, not a "fiat currency" problem.
    - grog454 5y ago
      I agree that it is a "Venmo problem", but more broadly it is a "human controlled/authority financial system problem". I do think something analogous could happen with Coinbase, particularly because your interactions with Coinbase require the use of centralized financial systems (bank account info or credit card info). I also think Coinbase holds and can access your private key. Correct me if that's wrong. What's more important is that you aren't required to use Coinbase, or even anything like it, to use cryptocurrency. In fact sites like Coinbase defeat at least some of the point.
      - virgilp 5y ago

ben_w 5y ago

> People seem to conflate decentralization with anarchy. Heh, I’m sorry I guess I phrased that badly. I’m saying there is an authority in all anarcho-x-isms, one which proponents ignore. My intention was to suggest an analogy of that hidden authority in blockchains, in that everything blockchain can do, can also be done cheaper by having a trusted party do the conventional stuff, and in some cases — such as legal disputes, where you have to bring in a trusted mediator — you end up with all the weaknesses of both the conventional approach and blockchain. > I'd like to be able to not even have to think about this happening: https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/pywwnp/how https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/pywwnp/how... We all would, but blockchains don’t prevent that. If anything it makes the problem more likely, because the current status quo is reversible in a court when sufficient evidence is supplied, but in the blockchain, possession of the private key is ownership. Private keys get lost and stolen all the time even for relatively trivial things; in the case of property ownership, even if the private key is permanently offline — e.g. existing only in the form of a QR code on a sheet of paper in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “Beware of the Leopard” — for something as valuable as property, you can bet it would be stolen. > I'd like to know that when I receive $50 on Venmo/Paypal out of the blue: To which the direct counterpart is: what happens on a blockchain if you get scammed and want your money back? Do you really want the authorities to do what the blockchain says, or do you want your money back?

grog454 5y ago
>To which the direct counterpart is: what happens on a blockchain if you get scammed and want your money back? Do you really want the authorities to do what the blockchain says, or do you want your money back? I think you're misunderstanding this particular example. If someone sends me ~$50 BTC out of the blue and then somehow contacts me to say "oops can I have that back?". There are only two options with a block chain: (1) I send it back or (2) I'm up $50. With Venmo, and this has happened to people, there's (3) I send the $50 back, but the original $50 was from a pending deposit that was fraudulent, so Venmo decides I owe Venmo $50, and now I'm down $50, the thief is up $50, and Venmo is square. This will probably come as a tremendous shock to a lot of people in this forum but Venmo is going to look out for itself before it looks out for you. There are many cooperative scams (of multiple people vs Venmo) and it is not always easy for Venmo to determine exactly what is going on or who is scamming who.
- virgilp 5y ago
  Replace "Venmo" with "Coinbase" and you could have the exact same scenario in the future. "Oops, sorry we messed up, the fraudster's transaction got rejected and he didn't actually send you $50 in BTC like we said he did. What, you already initiated a payment of $50? Tough luck". This is a Venmo problem, not a "fiat currency" problem.
  - grog454 5y ago
    I agree that it is a "Venmo problem", but more broadly it is a "human controlled/authority financial system problem". I do think something analogous could happen with Coinbase, particularly because your interactions with Coinbase require the use of centralized financial systems (bank account info or credit card info). I also think Coinbase holds and can access your private key. Correct me if that's wrong. What's more important is that you aren't required to use Coinbase, or even anything like it, to use cryptocurrency. In fact sites like Coinbase defeat at least some of the point.
    - virgilp 5y ago