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https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_archlinux_embrace_systemd/d3rhxlc/ https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_a... q

https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_archlinux_embrace_systemd/d3rhxlc/ https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_a... quote: "What most systemd critics consider "bloat", I consider necessary complexity to solve a complex problem generically." endquote

dredmorbius 5y ago
https://old.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_archlinux_embrace_systemd/d3rhxlc/ https://old.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_a...
zozbot234 5y ago
For what it's worth, the OP argues the opposite - that systemd is insufficiently generic. Much of its complexity is a matter of conflating mechanisms and policy. This is par for the course for what's essentially prototype-quality software that's trying to address a number of non-trivial issues - but let's not pretend that real improvement is not possible here, or that systemd-as-it-currently-is does not stray from what's often called 'the UNIX philosophy' or 'the art of UNIX programming', of which separating mechanism from policy is a key component.
- pas 5y ago
  > separating mechanism from policy as a key component of unix philosophy Can you please elaborate on this? It sounds like a very desirable approach, but I don't really see it "in unix". (I can think of a few program suites that use processes and piping between them as the "protocol", eg. cups, the executable files in a directory that are then launched in a loop pattern is more common, but that seems to lack the policy part. Whereas OpenSSH for example lacks this.)
rjzzleep 5y ago
I use archlinux as a daily driver, but it breaks far more randomly than gentoo ever did for me. Archlinux's bugzilla is full of random breakages that happen at random system updates. Here's a random python bug that been happening, cost me a couple of hours to debug and for now I don't update python until they get around fixing it[1]. The fix? Download an older python version(not too old since that would break everything else) from the arch package archive. I don't want to hear anything about stable or production systems or debugging from arch maintainers. Every so often I forget the journalctl and coredumpctl command line flags and have to google how to do basic tasks. [1] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/73002 https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/73002 EDIT: and before someone asks me why i'm using it, it's because i lke tinkering and for the most part i can deal with these "outages" on my laptop.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Arch is not appropriate for production use. LTS distros (two years of stability or more) exist for a reason.
- ReactiveJelly 5y ago
  The official Arch stance seems to be "You should have read the blog before updating", and I enforce that by updating maybe 3 times a year at most. I think I'm just used to the installer. I like doing everything by CLI. Ubuntu is always trying to push something odd like Snap, and I think Xubuntu is defunct. The Ubuntu installers are very opinionated on what kind of desktop they want you to have. One of these days I'll just buy all the ThinkPenguin stuff and go to FOSS-only Debian with xfce. Debian has a great installer, too. Then I'll turn my desktops into cattle-style systems where I blow up the rootfs once a year for full system updates.
  - rjzzleep 5y ago
    Did you check the linked bug and its suggested workaround? It's nothing an update note would address. It's just random breakage. There are a lot of these issues scattered across their bugzilla.
  - mrtweetyhack 5y ago
  - yonrg 5y ago
    Arch user here since 2013 on my mobile systems. I do -Suy nearly every day, which causes me nearly null troubles. My experiences with any supported enterprise distro are much worse.
  - Krssst 5y ago
    > I blow up the rootfs once a year for full system updates. My experience with Debian system updates have been pretty good; I don't think I have ever blown up my system through them. (when running stable)
  - bombcar 5y ago

dredmorbius 5y ago

https://old.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_archlinux_embrace_systemd/d3rhxlc/ https://old.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_a...

zozbot234 5y ago

For what it's worth, the OP argues the opposite - that systemd is insufficiently generic. Much of its complexity is a matter of conflating mechanisms and policy. This is par for the course for what's essentially prototype-quality software that's trying to address a number of non-trivial issues - but let's not pretend that real improvement is not possible here, or that systemd-as-it-currently-is does not stray from what's often called 'the UNIX philosophy' or 'the art of UNIX programming', of which separating mechanism from policy is a key component.

pas 5y ago
> separating mechanism from policy as a key component of unix philosophy Can you please elaborate on this? It sounds like a very desirable approach, but I don't really see it "in unix". (I can think of a few program suites that use processes and piping between them as the "protocol", eg. cups, the executable files in a directory that are then launched in a loop pattern is more common, but that seems to lack the policy part. Whereas OpenSSH for example lacks this.)

rjzzleep 5y ago

I use archlinux as a daily driver, but it breaks far more randomly than gentoo ever did for me. Archlinux's bugzilla is full of random breakages that happen at random system updates. Here's a random python bug that been happening, cost me a couple of hours to debug and for now I don't update python until they get around fixing it[1]. The fix? Download an older python version(not too old since that would break everything else) from the arch package archive. I don't want to hear anything about stable or production systems or debugging from arch maintainers. Every so often I forget the journalctl and coredumpctl command line flags and have to google how to do basic tasks. [1] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/73002 https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/73002 EDIT: and before someone asks me why i'm using it, it's because i lke tinkering and for the most part i can deal with these "outages" on my laptop.

zozbot234 5y ago
Arch is not appropriate for production use. LTS distros (two years of stability or more) exist for a reason.
ReactiveJelly 5y ago
The official Arch stance seems to be "You should have read the blog before updating", and I enforce that by updating maybe 3 times a year at most. I think I'm just used to the installer. I like doing everything by CLI. Ubuntu is always trying to push something odd like Snap, and I think Xubuntu is defunct. The Ubuntu installers are very opinionated on what kind of desktop they want you to have. One of these days I'll just buy all the ThinkPenguin stuff and go to FOSS-only Debian with xfce. Debian has a great installer, too. Then I'll turn my desktops into cattle-style systems where I blow up the rootfs once a year for full system updates.
- rjzzleep 5y ago
  Did you check the linked bug and its suggested workaround? It's nothing an update note would address. It's just random breakage. There are a lot of these issues scattered across their bugzilla.
- mrtweetyhack 5y ago
- yonrg 5y ago
  Arch user here since 2013 on my mobile systems. I do -Suy nearly every day, which causes me nearly null troubles. My experiences with any supported enterprise distro are much worse.
- Krssst 5y ago
  > I blow up the rootfs once a year for full system updates. My experience with Debian system updates have been pretty good; I don't think I have ever blown up my system through them. (when running stable)
- bombcar 5y ago