5 ms·

It's not as bad as at first feared. Views here are along the usual lines; for many when there's an issue either it's something that's fixable inhouse (init scri

by zh3 5y ago

It's not as bad as at first feared. Views here are along the usual lines; for many when there's an issue either it's something that's fixable inhouse (init scripts) or needs a support contract. Having said that, personally (old school) I lost 2 or 3 hours yesterday due to not realising systemd was changing things I changed for a reason.

na85 5y ago
It's not so bad now. You might be forgetting how bad it was at first. In fact I'd argue it was worse than initially feared, and the developer's supreme arrogance did little to help.
opan 5y ago
>I lost 2 or 3 hours yesterday due to not realising systemd was changing things I changed for a reason. This is one of my go-to reasons when people ask me why systemd is bad. Once it overrode power settings I had configured in xfce-power-manager. Mainly I wanted the lid close to do nothing on AC power and to sleep on battery. It started sleeping for everything after an update once. I think in the end I couldn't figure out how to get the exact desired behavior with systemd and I disabled sleep entirely. The other reason I often mention is the ridiculous shutdown timer thing that makes you wait for minutes sometimes for some service to end. The main advantage to systemd is that a lot of unit files were already written and packaged with stuff, including --user variants, and also that it has a user mode at all (OpenRC doesn't yet). Fairly minor advantage, imo. In general I prefer shepherd, runit, or openrc. My needs are pretty simple, though. Most of the time I just need to start/stop/restart a service, which is pretty simple in every init system I've used.
- cookiengineer 5y ago
  I'm curious...what happened with the override or how did systemd modify its unit files? Is it something like a forgiving parser going rogue in an edge case? The only thing I could think of is a systemd default setting that was added to logind.conf or something similar...that's why I'm asking.
- blueflow 5y ago
  When waiting for units to shut down, have you tried pressing Ctrl+Alt+Delete 7 times? It forces a reboot, and you can turn the machine off before linux has taken over again.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    > have you tried pressing Ctrl+Alt+Delete 7 times? It forces a reboot Not sure if serious? At that point, how is that any better than just using Windows? "Press Ctrl+Alt+Delete 7 times" has long been SOP there.
    - blueflow 5y ago
      See https://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/NEWS?id=2d1ca11270e66777c90a449096203afebc37ec9c#n610 https://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/NEWS?id=2d... Color me as part of the anti-systemd crowd, but i still got to support it on machines where i didn't get to choose.
    - ReactiveJelly 5y ago
      Ah, someone scooped me! Just confirmed it in the docs https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.html#SIGINT https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.htm... I didn't even know Windows did this. This is going to save my butt some day.
  - nyanpasu64 5y ago
    Pressing Ctrl+Alt+Delete 8 times (I think, 7 times to increment the counter, then 1 more time to trigger a force reboot) sends SIGTERM or something to all processes. But many wedged processes (like kwin calling a Nvidia libglx function trying and failing to acquire an spinlock) ignore the signal and can only be killed with SIGKILL, which systemd sends a few minutes after you press Ctrl+Alt+Delete 8 times. I work around this by enabling Alt+SysRq and pressing Alt+PrintScr+R (raw input), E (SIGTERM), I (SIGKILL) whenever systemd gets wedged.
- asimops 5y ago
  For the shutdown, do you use systemctl poweroff? If so, and you are sure that there will be no dataloss, you could use the --force parameter. https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/systemctl.1.html https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/systemctl.1.html

by zh3 5y ago

na85 5y ago

It's not so bad now. You might be forgetting how bad it was at first. In fact I'd argue it was worse than initially feared, and the developer's supreme arrogance did little to help.

opan 5y ago

>I lost 2 or 3 hours yesterday due to not realising systemd was changing things I changed for a reason. This is one of my go-to reasons when people ask me why systemd is bad. Once it overrode power settings I had configured in xfce-power-manager. Mainly I wanted the lid close to do nothing on AC power and to sleep on battery. It started sleeping for everything after an update once. I think in the end I couldn't figure out how to get the exact desired behavior with systemd and I disabled sleep entirely. The other reason I often mention is the ridiculous shutdown timer thing that makes you wait for minutes sometimes for some service to end. The main advantage to systemd is that a lot of unit files were already written and packaged with stuff, including --user variants, and also that it has a user mode at all (OpenRC doesn't yet). Fairly minor advantage, imo. In general I prefer shepherd, runit, or openrc. My needs are pretty simple, though. Most of the time I just need to start/stop/restart a service, which is pretty simple in every init system I've used.

cookiengineer 5y ago
I'm curious...what happened with the override or how did systemd modify its unit files? Is it something like a forgiving parser going rogue in an edge case? The only thing I could think of is a systemd default setting that was added to logind.conf or something similar...that's why I'm asking.
blueflow 5y ago
When waiting for units to shut down, have you tried pressing Ctrl+Alt+Delete 7 times? It forces a reboot, and you can turn the machine off before linux has taken over again.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > have you tried pressing Ctrl+Alt+Delete 7 times? It forces a reboot Not sure if serious? At that point, how is that any better than just using Windows? "Press Ctrl+Alt+Delete 7 times" has long been SOP there.
  - blueflow 5y ago
    See https://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/NEWS?id=2d1ca11270e66777c90a449096203afebc37ec9c#n610 https://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/NEWS?id=2d... Color me as part of the anti-systemd crowd, but i still got to support it on machines where i didn't get to choose.
  - ReactiveJelly 5y ago
    Ah, someone scooped me! Just confirmed it in the docs https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.html#SIGINT https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.htm... I didn't even know Windows did this. This is going to save my butt some day.
- nyanpasu64 5y ago
  Pressing Ctrl+Alt+Delete 8 times (I think, 7 times to increment the counter, then 1 more time to trigger a force reboot) sends SIGTERM or something to all processes. But many wedged processes (like kwin calling a Nvidia libglx function trying and failing to acquire an spinlock) ignore the signal and can only be killed with SIGKILL, which systemd sends a few minutes after you press Ctrl+Alt+Delete 8 times. I work around this by enabling Alt+SysRq and pressing Alt+PrintScr+R (raw input), E (SIGTERM), I (SIGKILL) whenever systemd gets wedged.
asimops 5y ago
For the shutdown, do you use systemctl poweroff? If so, and you are sure that there will be no dataloss, you could use the --force parameter. https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/systemctl.1.html https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/systemctl.1.html