5 ms·

> Vaccine and/or testing requirements would create more freedom for a lot of people More people than EVER are vaccinated and we have higher case loads than eve

> Vaccine and/or testing requirements would create more freedom for a lot of people More people than EVER are vaccinated and we have higher case loads than ever. I don't understand how you can still justify this line of thinking in 2022. Having it as an option is fine. Mandating people to take something that the experts are not even sure how effective it is?

lanstin 5y ago
i have read much data and analysis that the people going to hospital and dieing are almost all unvaccinated, even tho most people are vaccinated. So it is quite effective at preseving our medical system and our people. qed
- edmcnulty101 5y ago
  But it still doesn't make sense. Two thirds of the country are vaccinated and that had NO impact on case rates? Instead case rates doubled?
notacoward 5y ago
> I don't understand how you can still justify this line of thinking in 2022. Your understanding (or acceptance) of a statement does not reflect at all on its truth. Immunocompromised people still exist. People with other risk factors (including those that aren't even the result of any choice they made) still exist. Children too young to be vaccinated still exist. Their families and others in constant close contact with them still exist. After the omicron wave has abated, as it has already done in South Africa and is likely to do elsewhere, all those people will still be barred from doing things that they could otherwise do within a reasonable margin of safety if vaccine and testing requirements were in place. It's really not that complicated. Their freedom is being limited by others' intransigence. As for whether experts know if the vaccines are effective: they do. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2119270 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2119270 It's entirely possible to have higher numbers of cases despite vaccines being effective, if the number of exposures and/or infectivity have increased more than the vaccination rate and effectiveness. Again, it's not that complicated. The math is pretty simple, people have done the math (see above), and the only rational conclusion is that vaccines are pretty effective.
- edmcnulty101 5y ago
  First of all...the supreme court is about to rule on this next week so we'll see if they believe your view reflects the truth or if they believe your view to be off base. Second of all, If you're born without an immune system...that sucks...but no one's problem but yours. Get a bubble suit, be creative. That's what America's all about. Concerts and arena sports are still going on daily dispute highest caseloads ever. People as a whole, have moved past your way of thinking with the manipulative: "what about immunocompromised children and granny" heartstring stuff. People want to see Coachella or the Lakers and live their lives... despite an immunocompromised child or granny dying. They aren't going to stand for questionable vaccines and questionable Covid restrictions any longer. Society wide, for all intents and purposes, Covid is over being the center of people life anymore.
  - notacoward 5y ago
    > the supreme court is about to rule on this next week What the supreme court will rule on is not whether the facts I've laid out are correct. What they will rule on is whether it is permissible under the constitution to take action that will weigh one small group's major freedoms for another larger group's minor ones. That's quite a different thing. Some might even argue that what the court will decide, given its current makeup, is whether they can find an excuse to do what one political faction wants, and that's different again. > If you're born without an immune system...that sucks...but no one's problem but yours That is an extremely callow position, supported by neither the law nor the popular will. The US constitution, among others, was written as part of a philosophical tradition in which protection of society's most vulnerable was a high moral value. Its content and subsequent interpretation reflect that, as do vast numbers of statutes passed under it. What you're arguing for is nothing less than eugenics, and that's not just a "manipulating heartstrings" issue. It's almost universally reviled, for good reason. > People as a whole, have moved past Appeal to popularity, fallacious and false. > They aren't going to stand for questionable vaccines You haven't provided one shred of evidence calling those vaccines' efficacy (or safety) into question. Haven't even tried. On the other hand, evidence proving that efficacy has been provided. Any good-faith interlocutor would be able to make better arguments.

lanstin 5y ago

i have read much data and analysis that the people going to hospital and dieing are almost all unvaccinated, even tho most people are vaccinated. So it is quite effective at preseving our medical system and our people. qed

edmcnulty101 5y ago
But it still doesn't make sense. Two thirds of the country are vaccinated and that had NO impact on case rates? Instead case rates doubled?

notacoward 5y ago

> I don't understand how you can still justify this line of thinking in 2022. Your understanding (or acceptance) of a statement does not reflect at all on its truth. Immunocompromised people still exist. People with other risk factors (including those that aren't even the result of any choice they made) still exist. Children too young to be vaccinated still exist. Their families and others in constant close contact with them still exist. After the omicron wave has abated, as it has already done in South Africa and is likely to do elsewhere, all those people will still be barred from doing things that they could otherwise do within a reasonable margin of safety if vaccine and testing requirements were in place. It's really not that complicated. Their freedom is being limited by others' intransigence. As for whether experts know if the vaccines are effective: they do. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2119270 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2119270 It's entirely possible to have higher numbers of cases despite vaccines being effective, if the number of exposures and/or infectivity have increased more than the vaccination rate and effectiveness. Again, it's not that complicated. The math is pretty simple, people have done the math (see above), and the only rational conclusion is that vaccines are pretty effective.

edmcnulty101 5y ago
First of all...the supreme court is about to rule on this next week so we'll see if they believe your view reflects the truth or if they believe your view to be off base. Second of all, If you're born without an immune system...that sucks...but no one's problem but yours. Get a bubble suit, be creative. That's what America's all about. Concerts and arena sports are still going on daily dispute highest caseloads ever. People as a whole, have moved past your way of thinking with the manipulative: "what about immunocompromised children and granny" heartstring stuff. People want to see Coachella or the Lakers and live their lives... despite an immunocompromised child or granny dying. They aren't going to stand for questionable vaccines and questionable Covid restrictions any longer. Society wide, for all intents and purposes, Covid is over being the center of people life anymore.
- notacoward 5y ago
  > the supreme court is about to rule on this next week What the supreme court will rule on is not whether the facts I've laid out are correct. What they will rule on is whether it is permissible under the constitution to take action that will weigh one small group's major freedoms for another larger group's minor ones. That's quite a different thing. Some might even argue that what the court will decide, given its current makeup, is whether they can find an excuse to do what one political faction wants, and that's different again. > If you're born without an immune system...that sucks...but no one's problem but yours That is an extremely callow position, supported by neither the law nor the popular will. The US constitution, among others, was written as part of a philosophical tradition in which protection of society's most vulnerable was a high moral value. Its content and subsequent interpretation reflect that, as do vast numbers of statutes passed under it. What you're arguing for is nothing less than eugenics, and that's not just a "manipulating heartstrings" issue. It's almost universally reviled, for good reason. > People as a whole, have moved past Appeal to popularity, fallacious and false. > They aren't going to stand for questionable vaccines You haven't provided one shred of evidence calling those vaccines' efficacy (or safety) into question. Haven't even tried. On the other hand, evidence proving that efficacy has been provided. Any good-faith interlocutor would be able to make better arguments.