5 ms·

> iMessage will literally prevent adding non Apple IDs to group chats if the initial start of the chat is in iMessage and included non SMS apple ids. WhatsApp

by dpark 5y ago

> iMessage will literally prevent adding non Apple IDs to group chats if the initial start of the chat is in iMessage and included non SMS apple ids. WhatsApp also doesn’t let you randomly include SMS recipients, because that’s technically infeasible. This doesn’t seem at all surprising. “Messages” is essentially a client that supports two unrelated protocols. MMS and iMessage. If you create an iMessage conversation, there is no way to involve SMS without moving the entire conversation to that protocol, which gives up all the iMessage features.

meetingthrower 5y ago
Yes, but I can run Whatsapp on Android.
- dpark 5y ago
  Sure. For the sake of not being dicks, I think Apple should ship iMessage for Android. But that’s different from Messages happily shoving everyone into MMS and giving up all the iMessage features Apple users want. Of course I think YouTube should have allowed on Windows Phone, too. Corporations are often very dickish in their search for dominance. edit: I think I misunderstood the scenario here. I thought you were saying it was not possible to add a non-iMessage recipient to a group chat. It sounds like that actually does work? (I’ve never actually done this.) What you’re asking for it’s for Apple to violate privacy by reversing an Apple ID and revealing a phone number. Honestly that sounds pretty iffy to me.
  - meetingthrower 5y ago
    Correct - depending how the chat is started, a non-imessage number cannot be added. I think it has to do with having one number of the group that is apple id based and not phone number based. So it is not about the color, but literally about being locked out of the conversation unless you are on an apple device. Edit: yes agreed that an Android app for iMessage would be perfect. And I'm fine with requiring an apple id. And I'm even fine with the color! But the sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't is ridiculous.
    - dpark 5y ago
      Right. I think the fix is to ship iMessage for Android rather than support the privacy violation, though. If they shipped iMessage for Android, they would probably be more aggressive about refusing to revert back to SMS/MMS.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    > I think Apple should ship iMessage for Android. I kinda do and don't want this. I think the ideal would be that Apple just support RCS on iPhones (and work with the people who define RCS to fix any perceived deficiencies, if any) and allow iMessage to fade away. Second would hold their noses and work with Google to add iMessage support to the Android Messages app. I really don't want yet another chat app on my phone. But yeah, at the absolute very least, Apple should release a version of iMessage for Android. I get why they don't, but screw that. They claim to be champions of security and privacy, but intentionally degrade the security and privacy of their own customers any time they want to converse with an Android user.
    - dpark 5y ago
      > I think the ideal would be that Apple just support RCS on iPhones (and work with the people who define RCS to fix any perceived deficiencies, if any) and allow iMessage to fade away. I assume RCS is the latest message protocol for phones? Does this support non-phone devices? If not, I’m doubtful Apple will ever do this unless it’s mandated or iMessage use collapses for some reason. Lots of people use iMessage on their Apple laptops or iPads. Apple isn’t going to drop that support to make Android users happy. I find it interesting how often the industry refuses to change until Apple eventually says “fuck it, we can do better” and ships what the industry should have done already. MMS is extremely limited and I never heard anyone seriously discuss improving it until iMessage appeared. Ditto for USB vs lightning.
908B64B197 5y ago
I have to wonder why Android simply didn't create their own iMessage clone.
- dpark 5y ago
  Because Apple would sue them. It’s generally not kosher to make a custom client for someone else’s proprietary system. Little players sometimes get away with this, but when large corporations do it, they get sued. Microsoft tried this with YouTube in Windows Phone. They got shut down by Google. If they had persisted with shipping it anyway (bypassing the block somehow ), they doubtless would have been sued.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    My bad, I meant rolling out their alternate protocol. If I use an iPhone with other iPhone users, the default messaging app simply just works. Why not replicate the same experience for Android users? Competing by creating their ecosystem where the green bubbles are the premium experience and the blue ones (for iPhone users) is the fallback to legacy SMS?
    - dpark 5y ago
      Google doesn’t want to build that. They have publicly stated as much in the past. At the time at least they are pushing for improvements to the MMS infrastructure/protocol to support iMessage-type features. But also just because they build an equivalent system doesn’t mean anyone would move to it. They tried that with Google+.
    - jandrese 5y ago
      Google has built (and abandoned) like a dozen different SMS replacement apps at this point.
- kelnos 5y ago
  They did. Well, sorta. Google adopted RCS[0] for Android (and even added end-to-end encryption to it), and despite mostly only being pushed by Google, is an open-access protocol that any carrier (or company) could implement themselves. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services

by dpark 5y ago

meetingthrower 5y ago

Yes, but I can run Whatsapp on Android.

dpark 5y ago
Sure. For the sake of not being dicks, I think Apple should ship iMessage for Android. But that’s different from Messages happily shoving everyone into MMS and giving up all the iMessage features Apple users want. Of course I think YouTube should have allowed on Windows Phone, too. Corporations are often very dickish in their search for dominance. edit: I think I misunderstood the scenario here. I thought you were saying it was not possible to add a non-iMessage recipient to a group chat. It sounds like that actually does work? (I’ve never actually done this.) What you’re asking for it’s for Apple to violate privacy by reversing an Apple ID and revealing a phone number. Honestly that sounds pretty iffy to me.
- meetingthrower 5y ago
  Correct - depending how the chat is started, a non-imessage number cannot be added. I think it has to do with having one number of the group that is apple id based and not phone number based. So it is not about the color, but literally about being locked out of the conversation unless you are on an apple device. Edit: yes agreed that an Android app for iMessage would be perfect. And I'm fine with requiring an apple id. And I'm even fine with the color! But the sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't is ridiculous.
  - dpark 5y ago
    Right. I think the fix is to ship iMessage for Android rather than support the privacy violation, though. If they shipped iMessage for Android, they would probably be more aggressive about refusing to revert back to SMS/MMS.
- kelnos 5y ago
  > I think Apple should ship iMessage for Android. I kinda do and don't want this. I think the ideal would be that Apple just support RCS on iPhones (and work with the people who define RCS to fix any perceived deficiencies, if any) and allow iMessage to fade away. Second would hold their noses and work with Google to add iMessage support to the Android Messages app. I really don't want yet another chat app on my phone. But yeah, at the absolute very least, Apple should release a version of iMessage for Android. I get why they don't, but screw that. They claim to be champions of security and privacy, but intentionally degrade the security and privacy of their own customers any time they want to converse with an Android user.
  - dpark 5y ago
    > I think the ideal would be that Apple just support RCS on iPhones (and work with the people who define RCS to fix any perceived deficiencies, if any) and allow iMessage to fade away. I assume RCS is the latest message protocol for phones? Does this support non-phone devices? If not, I’m doubtful Apple will ever do this unless it’s mandated or iMessage use collapses for some reason. Lots of people use iMessage on their Apple laptops or iPads. Apple isn’t going to drop that support to make Android users happy. I find it interesting how often the industry refuses to change until Apple eventually says “fuck it, we can do better” and ships what the industry should have done already. MMS is extremely limited and I never heard anyone seriously discuss improving it until iMessage appeared. Ditto for USB vs lightning.

908B64B197 5y ago

I have to wonder why Android simply didn't create their own iMessage clone.

dpark 5y ago
Because Apple would sue them. It’s generally not kosher to make a custom client for someone else’s proprietary system. Little players sometimes get away with this, but when large corporations do it, they get sued. Microsoft tried this with YouTube in Windows Phone. They got shut down by Google. If they had persisted with shipping it anyway (bypassing the block somehow ), they doubtless would have been sued.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  My bad, I meant rolling out their alternate protocol. If I use an iPhone with other iPhone users, the default messaging app simply just works. Why not replicate the same experience for Android users? Competing by creating their ecosystem where the green bubbles are the premium experience and the blue ones (for iPhone users) is the fallback to legacy SMS?
  - dpark 5y ago
    Google doesn’t want to build that. They have publicly stated as much in the past. At the time at least they are pushing for improvements to the MMS infrastructure/protocol to support iMessage-type features. But also just because they build an equivalent system doesn’t mean anyone would move to it. They tried that with Google+.
  - jandrese 5y ago
    Google has built (and abandoned) like a dozen different SMS replacement apps at this point.
kelnos 5y ago
They did. Well, sorta. Google adopted RCS[0] for Android (and even added end-to-end encryption to it), and despite mostly only being pushed by Google, is an open-access protocol that any carrier (or company) could implement themselves. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services