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If you’re living in a dysfunctional government then at least crypto protects you from random seizures/freezing of your assets. > The absolute vast majority of

If you’re living in a dysfunctional government then at least crypto protects you from random seizures/freezing of your assets. > The absolute vast majority of people in the world live in countries with functioning governments. The underlying statement you are making bere is that we shouldn’t be building technology that helps people undermine their governments’ ability to control their citizens’ assets. That’s the crux of the argument here. If you live in a government where things generally work for you, this technology is threatening. If you don’t, it’s a possible path to some semblance of autonomy.

dmitriid 5y ago
> If you’re living in a dysfunctional government 1. There are very few such governments on earth, all things considered 2. You still need to somehow convert those "assets" into, you know, actual food, and clothing, and... In a truly dysfunctional government rubber-hose cryptanalysis is a thing that exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis > The underlying statement you are making bere is that we shouldn’t be building technology that helps people undermine their governments’ ability to control their citizens’ assets. No. The underlying statement is: you're building something that doesn't work the way it's advertised. > That’s the crux of the argument here. Well, if you invent arguments, pretend your opponent said those argumetns, and then bravely fight those arguments, then surely, that's the crux. So. Back to my original statement: "Crypto makes non-functioning governments significantly worse. Good luck proving the NFT on your house proves you're an owner in a dysfunctional government." It's an objective fact that doesn't rely on your imagining of what a dysfunctional government is.
- mthoms 5y ago
  >There are very few such governments on earth, all things considered I'm not going to wade into any of the crypto arguments here but your repeated downplaying of dysfunctional/authoritarian/corrupt/failing governments seems entirely disconnected with the reality that tens, perhaps hundreds[0], of millions of people live every day. Just because true democracy is a hard thing to define (per your previous comment), doesn't make oppressive governments any less oppressive. There are lots of valid complaints about Crypto and NFT's, but the argument that poor government is not that bad of a global problem "all things considered" is an absolutely terrible one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom and https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/economic-freedom-of-the-world-2021-annual-report https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/economic-freedom-of-...
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > but your repeated downplaying of dysfunctional/authoritarian/corrupt/failing governments seems entirely disconnected Again: stop inventing the arguments that are not there. The only people who are downplaying dysfunctonal governments are the crypto shills and crypto peddlers. If you actually took care and read what I wrote instead of imagining what I wrote, you'd see that never did I downplay dysfunctional governments. > doesn't make oppressive governments any less oppressive. Literally nowhere I said this. > but the argument that poor government is not that bad of a global problem "all things considered" is an absolutely terrible one. If only there was a single person here who made this argument. Also, an oppressive government does not a dysfunctional government make. So, in the course of just a few sentences you made these claims: - that I downplayed dysfunctional/authoritarian/corrupt/failing governments. I didn't - that I somehow argued that oppressive gvernments are not that oppressive. I didn't - that somehow authoritarian/oppressive is equal to dysfunctional. It isn't, necessarily. What I did write was: - the vast majority of people in this world do not live in dysfunctional governments - crypto makes the problems with dysfunctional governments worse: your "assets that goverment can't steal" have to be somehow converted into food/clothing/shelter etc. which makes you a target for Rubber-hose cryptanalysis etc. Any other "assets" are worthless because your "non fungible proof of ownership on blockchain" on your house, car, and other physical items are woth exactly zero even in a functional government, much less in a dysfunctional one. So. "All things considered", what's your opposition to what I wrote and not to what you imagine I wrote?
    - mthoms 5y ago
      >So. "All things considered", what's your opposition to what I wrote and not to what you imagine I wrote? OK. Lets' start here. Do you have citation for any of these gems? > the vast majority of people in this world do not live in dysfunctional governments > There are very few such governments on earth, all things considered Anyone who would write such subjective, unprovable "facts" with the certainty you did is not interested in honest debate. Please read the links I provided regarding economic freedoms in the world. China alone is ~ 20% of the worlds population and has currency controls prohibiting its citizens from spending their own money how they wish. That's a single country. As I said, I'm not here to debate the merits of crypto. I'm here because you are coming across as minimizing the economic struggles of millions of people. If that's not what you intended then fine - feel free to clarify. But that's how you are coming across (in additional to being generally aggressive and angry). Having said that, I would challenge you to provide support for this assertion: > crypto makes the problems with dysfunctional governments worse Unless I'm mistaken, you seem to think that people can't/don't cash out abroad. Or that they can't wait until the economic/political system is safer to cash out domestically. Am I understanding that correctly? As an aside: because you started your reply with "Again...", I suspect you didn't notice that this is our first interaction, and I'm not the other commenter you are engaged with. I suspect some of your anger/confusion is because you are confusing us?
gizmo385 5y ago
> If you’re living in a dysfunctional government then at least crypto protects you from random seizures/freezing of your assets. How so? We've already seen large scale shutdowns of crypto projects by centralized authorities like OpenSea. I highly doubt dysfunctional and authoritarian governments are going to swallow allowing their citizens to use these platforms without also ensuring that they have a measure of control over it. And if an authoritarian government wants to steal your assets, they'll just install malware on your device and take your keys, then you've lost everything. Or they'll just disappear you until you agree to hand things over.

dmitriid 5y ago

> If you’re living in a dysfunctional government 1. There are very few such governments on earth, all things considered 2. You still need to somehow convert those "assets" into, you know, actual food, and clothing, and... In a truly dysfunctional government rubber-hose cryptanalysis is a thing that exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis > The underlying statement you are making bere is that we shouldn’t be building technology that helps people undermine their governments’ ability to control their citizens’ assets. No. The underlying statement is: you're building something that doesn't work the way it's advertised. > That’s the crux of the argument here. Well, if you invent arguments, pretend your opponent said those argumetns, and then bravely fight those arguments, then surely, that's the crux. So. Back to my original statement: "Crypto makes non-functioning governments significantly worse. Good luck proving the NFT on your house proves you're an owner in a dysfunctional government." It's an objective fact that doesn't rely on your imagining of what a dysfunctional government is.

mthoms 5y ago
>There are very few such governments on earth, all things considered I'm not going to wade into any of the crypto arguments here but your repeated downplaying of dysfunctional/authoritarian/corrupt/failing governments seems entirely disconnected with the reality that tens, perhaps hundreds[0], of millions of people live every day. Just because true democracy is a hard thing to define (per your previous comment), doesn't make oppressive governments any less oppressive. There are lots of valid complaints about Crypto and NFT's, but the argument that poor government is not that bad of a global problem "all things considered" is an absolutely terrible one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom and https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/economic-freedom-of-the-world-2021-annual-report https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/economic-freedom-of-...
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > but your repeated downplaying of dysfunctional/authoritarian/corrupt/failing governments seems entirely disconnected Again: stop inventing the arguments that are not there. The only people who are downplaying dysfunctonal governments are the crypto shills and crypto peddlers. If you actually took care and read what I wrote instead of imagining what I wrote, you'd see that never did I downplay dysfunctional governments. > doesn't make oppressive governments any less oppressive. Literally nowhere I said this. > but the argument that poor government is not that bad of a global problem "all things considered" is an absolutely terrible one. If only there was a single person here who made this argument. Also, an oppressive government does not a dysfunctional government make. So, in the course of just a few sentences you made these claims: - that I downplayed dysfunctional/authoritarian/corrupt/failing governments. I didn't - that I somehow argued that oppressive gvernments are not that oppressive. I didn't - that somehow authoritarian/oppressive is equal to dysfunctional. It isn't, necessarily. What I did write was: - the vast majority of people in this world do not live in dysfunctional governments - crypto makes the problems with dysfunctional governments worse: your "assets that goverment can't steal" have to be somehow converted into food/clothing/shelter etc. which makes you a target for Rubber-hose cryptanalysis etc. Any other "assets" are worthless because your "non fungible proof of ownership on blockchain" on your house, car, and other physical items are woth exactly zero even in a functional government, much less in a dysfunctional one. So. "All things considered", what's your opposition to what I wrote and not to what you imagine I wrote?
  - mthoms 5y ago
    >So. "All things considered", what's your opposition to what I wrote and not to what you imagine I wrote? OK. Lets' start here. Do you have citation for any of these gems? > the vast majority of people in this world do not live in dysfunctional governments > There are very few such governments on earth, all things considered Anyone who would write such subjective, unprovable "facts" with the certainty you did is not interested in honest debate. Please read the links I provided regarding economic freedoms in the world. China alone is ~ 20% of the worlds population and has currency controls prohibiting its citizens from spending their own money how they wish. That's a single country. As I said, I'm not here to debate the merits of crypto. I'm here because you are coming across as minimizing the economic struggles of millions of people. If that's not what you intended then fine - feel free to clarify. But that's how you are coming across (in additional to being generally aggressive and angry). Having said that, I would challenge you to provide support for this assertion: > crypto makes the problems with dysfunctional governments worse Unless I'm mistaken, you seem to think that people can't/don't cash out abroad. Or that they can't wait until the economic/political system is safer to cash out domestically. Am I understanding that correctly? As an aside: because you started your reply with "Again...", I suspect you didn't notice that this is our first interaction, and I'm not the other commenter you are engaged with. I suspect some of your anger/confusion is because you are confusing us?

gizmo385 5y ago

> If you’re living in a dysfunctional government then at least crypto protects you from random seizures/freezing of your assets. How so? We've already seen large scale shutdowns of crypto projects by centralized authorities like OpenSea. I highly doubt dysfunctional and authoritarian governments are going to swallow allowing their citizens to use these platforms without also ensuring that they have a measure of control over it. And if an authoritarian government wants to steal your assets, they'll just install malware on your device and take your keys, then you've lost everything. Or they'll just disappear you until you agree to hand things over.