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The development of Signal, sorry to put it harshly, seems to suffer from a split brained syndrome. On one hand they’ll focus on adding stickers, stories and oth

The development of Signal, sorry to put it harshly, seems to suffer from a split brained syndrome. On one hand they’ll focus on adding stickers, stories and other trivial features to help appeal to a broader user base, but on the other hand they’ll refuse to implement basic and important features that people need in a chat app, like chat backups (there is no backup option for iOS, only a device to device transfer…so if you lose or break your device or switch to a new device after selling your old one, your chats are all gone). I don’t recommend Signal to others because its priorities don’t match mine and that of others I know. I do use it, but I treat it more like a fragile platform where anything can disappear any moment. Don’t share or keep anything valuable on it. The fact that Signal is another centralized platform that not only requires a phone number but also exposes your phone number to others (like in group chats) are larger issues for me. I’ve been trying Element (from Matrix), but its UX is quite poor. I just wish chat apps would copy at least some of the UX of Telegram.

lkxijlewlf 5y ago
I tend to agree. I want to be able to use the same account on two phones. I'm not the only one. Yes, there are workarounds, but ffs, come on already.
jraph 5y ago
It would be best to have backups built in, but in the mean time wouldn't Signal Desktop be a way to make backups? I moved my home directory to a new computer and Signal Desktop started like if something changed. Sure you would lose your messages on your phone, but you can still access them on your computer if needed. On a rooted Android phone, you could use oandbackup to backup Signal. If you care about these things, maybe consider using a rooted Android phone? I agree with you on the centralized platform aspect and the use of phone number (which is both a blessing (this makes it easy for new users to join) and a curse). I also agree with you on Element's UX, but it's getting better and most people can use it fine. I have a few groups on both apps. I personally prefer Element, which seems more open than Signal and which I can actually use correctly on the PinePhone. And definitely didn't requires the hoops I had to go through because I don't have an Android phone or an iPhone. Axolotl [1] still needs some work. [1] https://github.com/nanu-c/axolotl https://github.com/nanu-c/axolotl
- jfim 5y ago
  > On a rooted Android phone, you could use oandbackup to backup Signal. If you care about these things, maybe consider using a rooted Android phone? You don't need a rooted phone. Signal can do backups on Android, they can be enabled through Settings > Chats > Backups. I'm not sure why they don't have that feature on iOS though.
- mathnmusic 5y ago
  > the centralized platform aspect and the use of phone number Don't forget how Signal built MobileCoin integration completely in secret for a whole year. Public was kept in dark just so $MOB insiders could benefit handsomely.
jimkleiber 5y ago
> On one hand they’ll focus on adding stickers, stories and other trivial features to help appeal to a broader user base > I’ve been trying Element (from Matrix), but its UX is quite poor. I just wish chat apps would copy at least some of the UX of Telegram. I think Signal may be trying to copy some of the UX features that drive people to WhatsApp and Telegram, while maintaining the security. Adding stickers and stories with e2ee is probably quite the challenge and maybe less challenging than a creating secure solution, especially connected to the cloud. I personally am grateful they're adding more features and agree, would love for Signal to add UX elements at the rate of Telegram. BTW, I don't think Telegram has stories, which is a feature I really love on WhatsApp, so I think if Signal has that, it may be easier for me to get people to switch to Signal.
- saurik 5y ago
  Well, one of the big reasons people use services like Snapchat is so they can talk to people they meet in semi-sketchy circumstances without giving out their phone number (which can be used to track or stalk them). Moxie seems to insist that the only way to build a successful service is using telephone numbers, but clearly that is false as the world's largest unencrypted messengers--which should be the enemy, NOT WhatsApp!!!!!!!!--do not use phone numbers as identifiers and allow users to hide them even if they are collected.
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    > Moxie seems to insist that the only way to build a successful service is using telephone numbers, but clearly that is false as the world's largest unencrypted messengers--which should be the enemy, NOT WhatsApp!!!!!!!!--do not use phone numbers as identifiers and allow users to hide them even if they are collected. I don't think Moxie insists on this. I remember reading this on the Signal blog[0] a few years ago: > Social apps need a social network, and Signal’s is built on the phone numbers that are stored in your device’s address book. The address book on your device is in some ways a threat to the traditional social graphs controlled by companies like Facebook, since it is user-owned, portable, and accessible to any app you approve. For Signal, that has meant that we can leverage and contribute to a user-owned portable network without having to force users to build a new closed one from scratch. > However, many Signal users would also like to be able to communicate without revealing their phone numbers, in part because these identifiers are so portable that they enable a user’s conversation partner to contact them through other channels in cases where that might be less desirable. One challenge has been that if we added support for something like usernames in Signal, those usernames wouldn’t get saved in your phone’s address book. Thus if you reinstalled Signal or got a new device, you would lose your entire social graph, because it’s not saved anywhere else. > Other messaging apps solve this by storing a plaintext copy of your address book, social graph, and conversation frequency on their servers. That way your phone can get run over by a car without flattening your social graph in those apps, but it comes at a high privacy price. [0]: https://signal.org/blog/secure-value-recovery/ https://signal.org/blog/secure-value-recovery/
jbreitbart 5y ago
I intentionally drop all messages from time to time (typically once I get a new device). Am I the only one who feels like loosing old conversations is just fine? After all, I don’t remember all conversations I had in person as well. I understand that loosing them at an unexpected time can be annoying and a backup is useful, but I personally never had a use for that feature and knowing that it is annoying for someone to keep all my messages around forever is something I consider positive.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Yes. I keep my iMessages forever, and even back them up (as well as my photo library) as part of my desktop backups. I’m switching my social networks to Telegram after Signal burned up its good will focusing on features they want versus what their users want. Do I care if it’s as secure? No, I prefer the convenience and superior UX iMessages and Telegram offers. Really unfortunate, as it was Signal’s race to lose after their bump in usage and shoutouts from popular folks using it.
  - hermanradtke 5y ago
    > I’m switching my social networks to Telegram after Signal burned up its good will focusing on features they want versus what their users want. It seems to me like Signal has been focusing on making their UX closer to Telegrams. This seems to be what many users want?
  - stereoradonc 5y ago
    Let me know if you need any help in moving to Telegram! Welcome aboard. Need help with channels/ bots, groups? We've got you covered.
- zepearl 5y ago
  > Am I the only one who feels like loosing old conversations is just fine? Same here - but maybe if doing Business then somebody might want to keep them (e.g. to keep track of whatever your customers told you in the past? Just a guess...). (btw. I think it's not "loosing" if you don't mean something like "letting them free", but "losing". "losing" vs. "choosing", I kept mixing that up until recently... :P ) What I would like as a feature in Signal is "polls" (e.g. to choose with a few friends to which bar/restaurant to go, when to meet, whatever). But now unluckily I'm back on Whatsapp as even after having abandoned it, within almost 2 years most of my friends refused to install Signal -> in the end, on 31.Dec.2021, I decided to admit that I failed, and I reinstalled Whatsapp :(
SkyMarshal 5y ago
> I do use it, but I treat it more like a fragile platform where anything can disappear any moment. Don’t share or keep anything valuable on it. Fwiw most people I use signal with have auto-disappearing messages enabled, so all our comms are ephemeral anyway. And for private messages, that turns out to be totally fine. I read it, act on it if necessary, open any links in a browser, download any files sent, and then have no need for the message to persist beyond that. This isn't Twitter where I'm deliberately creating a public record of commentary for like-minded folks to find and engage with me on, that needs to persist for a long time. Signal for when I've already found those folks and need to have private OTR conversations with them.
noahtallen 5y ago
Yeah, I was evaluating a few group chat options to replace iMessage for a large group, and the lack of message backup and strong multi-device support is the reason Signal probably won’t work. One of the most confusing aspects of iMessage (before recent years) was that it didn’t sync chats to all devices. Some devices could get into a messed up state, not have all your messages, etc. Apple solved that problem with iCloud backup, which lets the cloud store messages. Not seeing your complete chat history on a new device is just not tenable for the average person, and a selling point of signal was that I could use it on windows or Linux, where I can’t use iMessage. I also heard adding signal on an iPad or second phone cousin be messy too. Compare that with telegram, which is extremely fast across any devices, has even more features, and is slightly easier to use… I mean, encryption in transit and at rest is good enough for most people. I agree philosophically with e2e encryption, but practically, is it all that important for average chat users, especially if it means sacrificing features people actually use?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
karmanyaahm 5y ago
SchildiChat (Android and web) is an Element fork focusing on simplifying the UX and making it like WhatsApp, Telegram etc. Them not having an iOS version is very unfortunate
ringworld 5y ago
Everyone has different UI feature desires so ill put that aside for this comment; flexibility is my key reason for Signal losing favor. What the Matrix solution gives me: - chat from multiple devices with history upon login (I read they're working on downloadable exports/backups) from any client; - zero knowledge webapp logins (e.g. the work laptop on VPN, app.element.io in a Chrome tab) just use your Security Key like MFA; - trivial and easy bridging with other endpoints (IRC, XMPP, etc.) it's not perfect but it works and I use this daily chatting with friends on other networks; - choice of many clients whether actual apps or web interfaces (yes, it's early days and rough around the edges but the capability is there and happening) unlike Signal; - distributed (federation) server designs baked in to avoid single company server lock in (Signal is opposed to this, goes hand in hand with using only their clients); - less trouble and better client experiences about around the above than XMPP ecosystem. I just get annoyed using the XMPP versions of my bullet points above (and I've really tried, honest) Is Matrix/Element perfect? no, lots of rough edges being worked on especially with the e2ee keys (my opinion). But I see healthy work, continual improvement and a good future ahead.
- saurik 5y ago
  And yet Moxie spends a ton of time and effort attempting to convince everyone that working on protocols and federated systems (not just "Web3" and crypto-adjacent stuff, as in his article yesterday, but the entire space: he gave a scathing talk a year or two ago you can find a copy of, though he interestingly hadn't wanted it recorded) are useless and that no one should waste their time building them :(.
  - Slothborg 5y ago
    > he gave a scathing talk a year or two ago you can find a copy of, though he interestingly hadn't wanted it recorded Do you mean the talk he gave at C3? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj3YFprqAr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj3YFprqAr8 Never heard anything about him not wanting it recorded, presenting at C3 means your talk will be recorded and distributed.
SECProto 5y ago
For me personally, adding stickers is much more important than chat backups - at least on a day-to-day basis. The last time I switched devices was 3.5 years ago, the last time I used a sticker was 3.5 hours ago.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ngrilly 5y ago
I don’t recommend Signal either due to the lack of encrypted backup/restore. I don’t understand the prioritization of other features over that one.
deafsquid69 5y ago
kelnos 5y ago
I'm skeptical that chat backups are that important to the average user. It's very important to me (I even wrote a little Android app to automatically upload the encrypted backup to GDrive every time one is created), but nearly everyone who I have promoted Signal to hasn't cared much when I warn them that the chat history/backup situation is bad.
mlok 5y ago
The first thing to do is install Signal on one or more devices and have them sync. When it is on your computer you don't loose your conversations if your phone breaks. But I agree : no easy backup in Signal is a major pain ! From the Electron based computer version of Signal you can use some js and backup conversations though. (No "restore" option though)

lkxijlewlf 5y ago

I tend to agree. I want to be able to use the same account on two phones. I'm not the only one. Yes, there are workarounds, but ffs, come on already.

jraph 5y ago

It would be best to have backups built in, but in the mean time wouldn't Signal Desktop be a way to make backups? I moved my home directory to a new computer and Signal Desktop started like if something changed. Sure you would lose your messages on your phone, but you can still access them on your computer if needed. On a rooted Android phone, you could use oandbackup to backup Signal. If you care about these things, maybe consider using a rooted Android phone? I agree with you on the centralized platform aspect and the use of phone number (which is both a blessing (this makes it easy for new users to join) and a curse). I also agree with you on Element's UX, but it's getting better and most people can use it fine. I have a few groups on both apps. I personally prefer Element, which seems more open than Signal and which I can actually use correctly on the PinePhone. And definitely didn't requires the hoops I had to go through because I don't have an Android phone or an iPhone. Axolotl [1] still needs some work. [1] https://github.com/nanu-c/axolotl https://github.com/nanu-c/axolotl

jfim 5y ago
> On a rooted Android phone, you could use oandbackup to backup Signal. If you care about these things, maybe consider using a rooted Android phone? You don't need a rooted phone. Signal can do backups on Android, they can be enabled through Settings > Chats > Backups. I'm not sure why they don't have that feature on iOS though.
mathnmusic 5y ago
> the centralized platform aspect and the use of phone number Don't forget how Signal built MobileCoin integration completely in secret for a whole year. Public was kept in dark just so $MOB insiders could benefit handsomely.

jimkleiber 5y ago

> On one hand they’ll focus on adding stickers, stories and other trivial features to help appeal to a broader user base > I’ve been trying Element (from Matrix), but its UX is quite poor. I just wish chat apps would copy at least some of the UX of Telegram. I think Signal may be trying to copy some of the UX features that drive people to WhatsApp and Telegram, while maintaining the security. Adding stickers and stories with e2ee is probably quite the challenge and maybe less challenging than a creating secure solution, especially connected to the cloud. I personally am grateful they're adding more features and agree, would love for Signal to add UX elements at the rate of Telegram. BTW, I don't think Telegram has stories, which is a feature I really love on WhatsApp, so I think if Signal has that, it may be easier for me to get people to switch to Signal.

saurik 5y ago
Well, one of the big reasons people use services like Snapchat is so they can talk to people they meet in semi-sketchy circumstances without giving out their phone number (which can be used to track or stalk them). Moxie seems to insist that the only way to build a successful service is using telephone numbers, but clearly that is false as the world's largest unencrypted messengers--which should be the enemy, NOT WhatsApp!!!!!!!!--do not use phone numbers as identifiers and allow users to hide them even if they are collected.
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  > Moxie seems to insist that the only way to build a successful service is using telephone numbers, but clearly that is false as the world's largest unencrypted messengers--which should be the enemy, NOT WhatsApp!!!!!!!!--do not use phone numbers as identifiers and allow users to hide them even if they are collected. I don't think Moxie insists on this. I remember reading this on the Signal blog[0] a few years ago: > Social apps need a social network, and Signal’s is built on the phone numbers that are stored in your device’s address book. The address book on your device is in some ways a threat to the traditional social graphs controlled by companies like Facebook, since it is user-owned, portable, and accessible to any app you approve. For Signal, that has meant that we can leverage and contribute to a user-owned portable network without having to force users to build a new closed one from scratch. > However, many Signal users would also like to be able to communicate without revealing their phone numbers, in part because these identifiers are so portable that they enable a user’s conversation partner to contact them through other channels in cases where that might be less desirable. One challenge has been that if we added support for something like usernames in Signal, those usernames wouldn’t get saved in your phone’s address book. Thus if you reinstalled Signal or got a new device, you would lose your entire social graph, because it’s not saved anywhere else. > Other messaging apps solve this by storing a plaintext copy of your address book, social graph, and conversation frequency on their servers. That way your phone can get run over by a car without flattening your social graph in those apps, but it comes at a high privacy price. [0]: https://signal.org/blog/secure-value-recovery/ https://signal.org/blog/secure-value-recovery/

jbreitbart 5y ago

I intentionally drop all messages from time to time (typically once I get a new device). Am I the only one who feels like loosing old conversations is just fine? After all, I don’t remember all conversations I had in person as well. I understand that loosing them at an unexpected time can be annoying and a backup is useful, but I personally never had a use for that feature and knowing that it is annoying for someone to keep all my messages around forever is something I consider positive.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Yes. I keep my iMessages forever, and even back them up (as well as my photo library) as part of my desktop backups. I’m switching my social networks to Telegram after Signal burned up its good will focusing on features they want versus what their users want. Do I care if it’s as secure? No, I prefer the convenience and superior UX iMessages and Telegram offers. Really unfortunate, as it was Signal’s race to lose after their bump in usage and shoutouts from popular folks using it.
- hermanradtke 5y ago
  > I’m switching my social networks to Telegram after Signal burned up its good will focusing on features they want versus what their users want. It seems to me like Signal has been focusing on making their UX closer to Telegrams. This seems to be what many users want?
- stereoradonc 5y ago
  Let me know if you need any help in moving to Telegram! Welcome aboard. Need help with channels/ bots, groups? We've got you covered.
zepearl 5y ago
> Am I the only one who feels like loosing old conversations is just fine? Same here - but maybe if doing Business then somebody might want to keep them (e.g. to keep track of whatever your customers told you in the past? Just a guess...). (btw. I think it's not "loosing" if you don't mean something like "letting them free", but "losing". "losing" vs. "choosing", I kept mixing that up until recently... :P ) What I would like as a feature in Signal is "polls" (e.g. to choose with a few friends to which bar/restaurant to go, when to meet, whatever). But now unluckily I'm back on Whatsapp as even after having abandoned it, within almost 2 years most of my friends refused to install Signal -> in the end, on 31.Dec.2021, I decided to admit that I failed, and I reinstalled Whatsapp :(

SkyMarshal 5y ago

> I do use it, but I treat it more like a fragile platform where anything can disappear any moment. Don’t share or keep anything valuable on it. Fwiw most people I use signal with have auto-disappearing messages enabled, so all our comms are ephemeral anyway. And for private messages, that turns out to be totally fine. I read it, act on it if necessary, open any links in a browser, download any files sent, and then have no need for the message to persist beyond that. This isn't Twitter where I'm deliberately creating a public record of commentary for like-minded folks to find and engage with me on, that needs to persist for a long time. Signal for when I've already found those folks and need to have private OTR conversations with them.

noahtallen 5y ago

Yeah, I was evaluating a few group chat options to replace iMessage for a large group, and the lack of message backup and strong multi-device support is the reason Signal probably won’t work. One of the most confusing aspects of iMessage (before recent years) was that it didn’t sync chats to all devices. Some devices could get into a messed up state, not have all your messages, etc. Apple solved that problem with iCloud backup, which lets the cloud store messages. Not seeing your complete chat history on a new device is just not tenable for the average person, and a selling point of signal was that I could use it on windows or Linux, where I can’t use iMessage. I also heard adding signal on an iPad or second phone cousin be messy too. Compare that with telegram, which is extremely fast across any devices, has even more features, and is slightly easier to use… I mean, encryption in transit and at rest is good enough for most people. I agree philosophically with e2e encryption, but practically, is it all that important for average chat users, especially if it means sacrificing features people actually use?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

karmanyaahm 5y ago

SchildiChat (Android and web) is an Element fork focusing on simplifying the UX and making it like WhatsApp, Telegram etc. Them not having an iOS version is very unfortunate

ringworld 5y ago

Everyone has different UI feature desires so ill put that aside for this comment; flexibility is my key reason for Signal losing favor. What the Matrix solution gives me: - chat from multiple devices with history upon login (I read they're working on downloadable exports/backups) from any client; - zero knowledge webapp logins (e.g. the work laptop on VPN, app.element.io in a Chrome tab) just use your Security Key like MFA; - trivial and easy bridging with other endpoints (IRC, XMPP, etc.) it's not perfect but it works and I use this daily chatting with friends on other networks; - choice of many clients whether actual apps or web interfaces (yes, it's early days and rough around the edges but the capability is there and happening) unlike Signal; - distributed (federation) server designs baked in to avoid single company server lock in (Signal is opposed to this, goes hand in hand with using only their clients); - less trouble and better client experiences about around the above than XMPP ecosystem. I just get annoyed using the XMPP versions of my bullet points above (and I've really tried, honest) Is Matrix/Element perfect? no, lots of rough edges being worked on especially with the e2ee keys (my opinion). But I see healthy work, continual improvement and a good future ahead.

saurik 5y ago
And yet Moxie spends a ton of time and effort attempting to convince everyone that working on protocols and federated systems (not just "Web3" and crypto-adjacent stuff, as in his article yesterday, but the entire space: he gave a scathing talk a year or two ago you can find a copy of, though he interestingly hadn't wanted it recorded) are useless and that no one should waste their time building them :(.
- Slothborg 5y ago
  > he gave a scathing talk a year or two ago you can find a copy of, though he interestingly hadn't wanted it recorded Do you mean the talk he gave at C3? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj3YFprqAr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj3YFprqAr8 Never heard anything about him not wanting it recorded, presenting at C3 means your talk will be recorded and distributed.

SECProto 5y ago

For me personally, adding stickers is much more important than chat backups - at least on a day-to-day basis. The last time I switched devices was 3.5 years ago, the last time I used a sticker was 3.5 hours ago.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

ngrilly 5y ago

I don’t recommend Signal either due to the lack of encrypted backup/restore. I don’t understand the prioritization of other features over that one.

deafsquid69 5y ago

kelnos 5y ago

I'm skeptical that chat backups are that important to the average user. It's very important to me (I even wrote a little Android app to automatically upload the encrypted backup to GDrive every time one is created), but nearly everyone who I have promoted Signal to hasn't cared much when I warn them that the chat history/backup situation is bad.

mlok 5y ago

The first thing to do is install Signal on one or more devices and have them sync. When it is on your computer you don't loose your conversations if your phone breaks. But I agree : no easy backup in Signal is a major pain ! From the Electron based computer version of Signal you can use some js and backup conversations though. (No "restore" option though)