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> Other nations would do well to follow Japan’s lead [...]. This policy appropriately places the responsibility for this healthcare decision with the individual

by teraku 5y ago

> Other nations would do well to follow Japan’s lead [...]. This policy appropriately places the responsibility for this healthcare decision with the individual or family. I'm sorry, no. This only works in countries like Japan.

MauranKilom 5y ago
Step 1: Change your country's entire culture to be like Japan. Step 2: Implement this policy. Where do I apply?
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  https://reachimmigration.com/en/blog/migrating-to-japan https://reachimmigration.com/en/blog/migrating-to-japan Great country, highly recommend moving to Japan if the culture and environment appeals to you.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
echelon 5y ago
It's supposed to work in America, one of the freest countries in the world that prides itself in personal liberty. After all, it's a country where anyone can say just about anything and also carry a gun. (If we fix our stance on drugs, stop interfering with women's rights, and get our policing in check, we'll be pretty much on track for being a perfect place for the individualist.) The far left and far right are both out of balance, and social media has fed a radicalization of both sides. I'm a liberal, but there's a disease in the left right now where many think that censorship is a good thing and that individual liberty should be suppressed for the greater whole. While it's great to imagine the outcomes for your world view, these new powers will not be used in the ways you anticipate. When the next political party comes to bat, they'll use your newfound disregard for liberty to strip you of yours. I'm pro-vaccination, but the way far left liberals are talking to conservatives is not going to win any allies. You're mocking their dead and calling for them to all lose their jobs. It's like Richard Dawkins trying to convert religious folks to atheism - do you seriously think this approach is going to work? These are supposed to be your neighbors. Please learn how to talk to them as human beings without sounding superior. We need to do some serious soul searching. We have to stop hating each other and turning literally everything into a political matter. We're not all that different for fuck's sake.
- kevinmgranger 5y ago
  Some of the hyper-online left believe some of things, sure. It's way less monolithic in meatspace.
  - Breazy 5y ago
    The voices and apparent influence of the hyper-online (in general) has been amplified by the social isolation imposed by pandemic response. People spend less time with others "in meatspace" and a substantial portion of their online socialization is on social media platforms where the hyper-online dominate.
- Nursie 5y ago
  It would never work as well in America. Voluntary measures tend to work well in places where people have a reasonable trust in their government, scientific and medical authorities etc. When the government of Japan says "Please get vaccinated of your own decision, understanding both the effectiveness in preventing infectious diseases and the risk of side effects. No vaccination will be given without consent.", they can be confident that the people of Japan will take rational, sensible, well-informed action. A large proportion will get vaccinated purely because the government recommend it. Look me in the eye and tell me you believe the same about the US populace.
  - dotnet00 5y ago
    That's putting things pretty charitably for a society that pushes conformity to the point of it being fairly unhealthy. Japanese peoples' trust in govt for 2020 was actually less than that of the US's. Their vaccination rates are more likely due to their community-oriented culture rather than their trust in government officials. https://data.oecd.org/gga/trust-in-government.htm https://data.oecd.org/gga/trust-in-government.htm
    - Nursie 5y ago
      Interesting... Thanks for that link, though I find it a little bit ambiguous that the measure is trust but the question asked is "In this country, do you have confidence in… national government?", which I think is slightly different to what I was alluding to which is trust in the motives of government. For instance I trust the motives of the health establishment in the UK, but I have considerably less confidence that I will get the best outcomes from it. Does that make sense? I wonder if it applies here and people in Japan are not confident in the ability of their government to deliver good outcomes. Whereas in the US a significant number question the motives. Or I could just be wrong :) Always worth entertaining that possibility. Yes, the community-oriented culture thing seems like a great explanation.
TheBlight 5y ago
Are you implying the decision to be vaccinated for covid-19 should lie elsewhere? With the state?
- malermeister 5y ago
  Yes, of course. Austria is doing that starting Feb 1.
mrkramer 5y ago
UK done that, at least that's what Boris Johnson said.
- Nursie 5y ago
  Yes, the UK in general is not forcing anything, and for a lot of purposes a negative test is as good as a vaccine passport. And in general it seems to have worked pretty well in the UK, as the country is now around 85% double vaccinated and 60% triple vaccinated (in people over 12). This could be down to the fact that while we British love to complain about the NHS, people trust the motives those who work for it and the motives of the health system as a whole, even if we don't always trust the way the system is set up or that it will always give the best outcomes.
  - salawat 5y ago
    Likely because there is a clear separation, and you have more of the Civil Servant boost going on. The U.S. has shit canned any semblance of trust with it's medical apparatus in my opinion. When you have War on Drugs policies being back door enforced through manufacturers, insurers, etc... (wasn't long ago that FDA was considering tainting ADHD drugs with additives for "anti-abuse" purposes, granting a new patent on an existing treatment, literally giving an official stamp to poison people like they did with cough syrup); https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4406920/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4406920/ Make no mistake. The language is flowery, it sounds good. Insurers use it because it doesn't sound like what it really is: adding complicating factors to treatment regimens that hardly anyone checks in on overtime in order to leverage a political ask (War on Drugs) as an ongoing business opportunity rather than keeping overall complexity down. When you have for profit hospitals getting federal kickbacks for case reporting; Caution: Lede is buried in the first part of the article, I'll quote the important bit here, but feel free to read it as a whole: TLDR was no one is getting put on ventilators to get paid more; point I'm more concerned on is I've got immediate people I know who've got relatives going into hospitals and getting reported as COVID, or getting poorer care for not being vaccinated. https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-... >It is true, however, that the government will pay more to hospitals for COVID-19 cases in two senses: By paying an additional 20% on top of traditional Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients during the public health emergency, and by reimbursing hospitals for treating the uninsured patients with the disease (at that enhanced Medicare rate). >Both of those provisions stem from the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act, or CARES Act. Where the above is the accountant/MBA's incentive, and the understandable frustration of medical practitioner's not being listened to due to most normal people's implicit awareness of the monetary incentive misalignment. When your medical education apparatus is tuned specifically to act as an artificial supply limiter that ensures that massive fee extraction is assured. See AMA and statutory limits on Doctors "blessed" to begin practice a year. https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/4561/does-the-ama-limit-the-number-of-doctors-to-increase-current-doctors-salaries https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/4561/does-the-a... When your drug approval process is so rife with controversy, 3 of 11 of your non-bureaucratic advisory panel resigns out of frustration because you fast tracked approval of a drug where you had two contraindications studies. (See Aduhelm). https://www.npr.org/2021/06/11/1005567149/3-experts-have-resigned-from-an-fda-committee-over-alzheimers-drug-approval https://www.npr.org/2021/06/11/1005567149/3-experts-have-res... When you have gems like: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/curing-disease-not-a-sustainable-business-model-goldman-sachs-analysts-say/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/curing-disease-n... This is a field where even the appearance of impropriety costs lives in the long run. Every actor in the space should be cognizant of and acting as such. There is far too little appreciation and value paid to this fact. Honestly, I'm just astounded more and more that people aren't more aware of how much sketchyness there is. Maybe people are aware, and just don't care. Maybe I'm the nut. I don't even know anymore.
toast0 5y ago
To be more precise, you don't need a mandate if 80% of the population got vaccination with encouragement only.
hitpointdrew 5y ago
Wrong. Facts don’t care about counties, politics, or culture. Japan is following the facts, most others are following fear and or corruption. Every country needs to adopt Japan’s policy and attitude towards covid, full stop.
- angryasian 5y ago
  unequivocally a false narrative. Japan from a young age is ingrained to best what's best for the rest of society and respect elders. They don't need to force because it's unlikely people wouldn't
raverbashing 5y ago
I agree How many people in Japan voluntarily used masks before Covid again? How many cases of people protesting the use of them in Japan has there been? Personal responsibility works well in countries where people don't think a virus has a political leaning and where people have a modicum of consideration for their fellow citizens.
- upsidesinclude 5y ago

by teraku 5y ago

MauranKilom 5y ago

Step 1: Change your country's entire culture to be like Japan. Step 2: Implement this policy. Where do I apply?

toomuchtodo 5y ago
https://reachimmigration.com/en/blog/migrating-to-japan https://reachimmigration.com/en/blog/migrating-to-japan Great country, highly recommend moving to Japan if the culture and environment appeals to you.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

echelon 5y ago

It's supposed to work in America, one of the freest countries in the world that prides itself in personal liberty. After all, it's a country where anyone can say just about anything and also carry a gun. (If we fix our stance on drugs, stop interfering with women's rights, and get our policing in check, we'll be pretty much on track for being a perfect place for the individualist.) The far left and far right are both out of balance, and social media has fed a radicalization of both sides. I'm a liberal, but there's a disease in the left right now where many think that censorship is a good thing and that individual liberty should be suppressed for the greater whole. While it's great to imagine the outcomes for your world view, these new powers will not be used in the ways you anticipate. When the next political party comes to bat, they'll use your newfound disregard for liberty to strip you of yours. I'm pro-vaccination, but the way far left liberals are talking to conservatives is not going to win any allies. You're mocking their dead and calling for them to all lose their jobs. It's like Richard Dawkins trying to convert religious folks to atheism - do you seriously think this approach is going to work? These are supposed to be your neighbors. Please learn how to talk to them as human beings without sounding superior. We need to do some serious soul searching. We have to stop hating each other and turning literally everything into a political matter. We're not all that different for fuck's sake.

kevinmgranger 5y ago
Some of the hyper-online left believe some of things, sure. It's way less monolithic in meatspace.
- Breazy 5y ago
  The voices and apparent influence of the hyper-online (in general) has been amplified by the social isolation imposed by pandemic response. People spend less time with others "in meatspace" and a substantial portion of their online socialization is on social media platforms where the hyper-online dominate.
Nursie 5y ago
It would never work as well in America. Voluntary measures tend to work well in places where people have a reasonable trust in their government, scientific and medical authorities etc. When the government of Japan says "Please get vaccinated of your own decision, understanding both the effectiveness in preventing infectious diseases and the risk of side effects. No vaccination will be given without consent.", they can be confident that the people of Japan will take rational, sensible, well-informed action. A large proportion will get vaccinated purely because the government recommend it. Look me in the eye and tell me you believe the same about the US populace.
- dotnet00 5y ago
  That's putting things pretty charitably for a society that pushes conformity to the point of it being fairly unhealthy. Japanese peoples' trust in govt for 2020 was actually less than that of the US's. Their vaccination rates are more likely due to their community-oriented culture rather than their trust in government officials. https://data.oecd.org/gga/trust-in-government.htm https://data.oecd.org/gga/trust-in-government.htm
  - Nursie 5y ago
    Interesting... Thanks for that link, though I find it a little bit ambiguous that the measure is trust but the question asked is "In this country, do you have confidence in… national government?", which I think is slightly different to what I was alluding to which is trust in the motives of government. For instance I trust the motives of the health establishment in the UK, but I have considerably less confidence that I will get the best outcomes from it. Does that make sense? I wonder if it applies here and people in Japan are not confident in the ability of their government to deliver good outcomes. Whereas in the US a significant number question the motives. Or I could just be wrong :) Always worth entertaining that possibility. Yes, the community-oriented culture thing seems like a great explanation.

TheBlight 5y ago

Are you implying the decision to be vaccinated for covid-19 should lie elsewhere? With the state?

malermeister 5y ago
Yes, of course. Austria is doing that starting Feb 1.

mrkramer 5y ago

UK done that, at least that's what Boris Johnson said.

Nursie 5y ago
Yes, the UK in general is not forcing anything, and for a lot of purposes a negative test is as good as a vaccine passport. And in general it seems to have worked pretty well in the UK, as the country is now around 85% double vaccinated and 60% triple vaccinated (in people over 12). This could be down to the fact that while we British love to complain about the NHS, people trust the motives those who work for it and the motives of the health system as a whole, even if we don't always trust the way the system is set up or that it will always give the best outcomes.
- salawat 5y ago
  Likely because there is a clear separation, and you have more of the Civil Servant boost going on. The U.S. has shit canned any semblance of trust with it's medical apparatus in my opinion. When you have War on Drugs policies being back door enforced through manufacturers, insurers, etc... (wasn't long ago that FDA was considering tainting ADHD drugs with additives for "anti-abuse" purposes, granting a new patent on an existing treatment, literally giving an official stamp to poison people like they did with cough syrup); https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4406920/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4406920/ Make no mistake. The language is flowery, it sounds good. Insurers use it because it doesn't sound like what it really is: adding complicating factors to treatment regimens that hardly anyone checks in on overtime in order to leverage a political ask (War on Drugs) as an ongoing business opportunity rather than keeping overall complexity down. When you have for profit hospitals getting federal kickbacks for case reporting; Caution: Lede is buried in the first part of the article, I'll quote the important bit here, but feel free to read it as a whole: TLDR was no one is getting put on ventilators to get paid more; point I'm more concerned on is I've got immediate people I know who've got relatives going into hospitals and getting reported as COVID, or getting poorer care for not being vaccinated. https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-... >It is true, however, that the government will pay more to hospitals for COVID-19 cases in two senses: By paying an additional 20% on top of traditional Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients during the public health emergency, and by reimbursing hospitals for treating the uninsured patients with the disease (at that enhanced Medicare rate). >Both of those provisions stem from the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act, or CARES Act. Where the above is the accountant/MBA's incentive, and the understandable frustration of medical practitioner's not being listened to due to most normal people's implicit awareness of the monetary incentive misalignment. When your medical education apparatus is tuned specifically to act as an artificial supply limiter that ensures that massive fee extraction is assured. See AMA and statutory limits on Doctors "blessed" to begin practice a year. https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/4561/does-the-ama-limit-the-number-of-doctors-to-increase-current-doctors-salaries https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/4561/does-the-a... When your drug approval process is so rife with controversy, 3 of 11 of your non-bureaucratic advisory panel resigns out of frustration because you fast tracked approval of a drug where you had two contraindications studies. (See Aduhelm). https://www.npr.org/2021/06/11/1005567149/3-experts-have-resigned-from-an-fda-committee-over-alzheimers-drug-approval https://www.npr.org/2021/06/11/1005567149/3-experts-have-res... When you have gems like: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/curing-disease-not-a-sustainable-business-model-goldman-sachs-analysts-say/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/curing-disease-n... This is a field where even the appearance of impropriety costs lives in the long run. Every actor in the space should be cognizant of and acting as such. There is far too little appreciation and value paid to this fact. Honestly, I'm just astounded more and more that people aren't more aware of how much sketchyness there is. Maybe people are aware, and just don't care. Maybe I'm the nut. I don't even know anymore.

toast0 5y ago

To be more precise, you don't need a mandate if 80% of the population got vaccination with encouragement only.

hitpointdrew 5y ago

Wrong. Facts don’t care about counties, politics, or culture. Japan is following the facts, most others are following fear and or corruption. Every country needs to adopt Japan’s policy and attitude towards covid, full stop.

angryasian 5y ago
unequivocally a false narrative. Japan from a young age is ingrained to best what's best for the rest of society and respect elders. They don't need to force because it's unlikely people wouldn't

raverbashing 5y ago

I agree How many people in Japan voluntarily used masks before Covid again? How many cases of people protesting the use of them in Japan has there been? Personal responsibility works well in countries where people don't think a virus has a political leaning and where people have a modicum of consideration for their fellow citizens.

upsidesinclude 5y ago