4 ms·

Or, when even moderate members of a community have a problem with the way they're being treated, it incites extremism amongst hotheads?

Chris2048 5y ago
"have a problem with the way they're being treated" includes satire of the prophet?
- pasabagi 5y ago
  That does seem the kind of thing that upsets religious people. It wouldn't bother me, an atheist, except it's part of a broader targeting of muslims that occurs across western europe and at every level of society. It is, of course, a total coincidence that most muslims are brown.
  - kergonath 5y ago
    > it's part of a broader targeting of muslims that occurs across western europe and at every level of society. Except of course it isn’t. Caricatures poking fun at various religions are common, have been for quite a while, and people complain about them regularly. Yet we’ve somehow accepted that we can make fun of a big guy with a beard. Somehow nobody has been killed over the Life of Brian. There are a couple of fundamental human rights to which everyone is entitled. These include freedom of conscience, the right to live in peace, and freedom of expression. Religion is fine as long as it does not interfere with the rights of other people, which includes the right to laugh at beliefs. Humans have rights, ideas don’t. On the other hand, nobody has a right not to be upset, and certainly not to kill people and plant bombs over it. It really should be a no brainer for anyone supposed to be supportive of any kind of enlightenment values. This ”they should not do it, but” is just as bad as “I am not racist, but”. That we are arguing whether people have a moral right to violence where the rule of law prevails, over something as trivial as hurt feelings, is absolutely disgusting. Try to substitute “Islam” for any philosophy or belief to see how patently absurd that is. Republicans are upset when you tell them Biden won. Should we censure that from public discourse?
    - jedimind 5y ago
      >> it's part of a broader targeting of muslims that occurs across western europe and at every level of society. > Except of course it isn’t. Caricatures poking fun at various religions are common... Oh come on, his statement is clearly not just about caricatures, but about a general trend, not only in french society, which is especially toxic towards religious people, but especially to Muslims. The evidence is abundant and anyone who has not an axe to grind, like yourself, will have no issue in acknowledging these facts. > There are a couple of fundamental human rights to which everyone is entitled. Really, is that so? Can you provide scientific evidence for this or do we have to take you word for it? Can we discover those 'fundamental human rights' under the microscope or are 'enlightened' individuals going to dictate to others what are and aren't 'fundamental human rights'? > On the other hand, nobody has a right not to be upset Rights are just arbitrary inventions of the human mind so any society has the power to implement whatever rights they like. Not that I am in favour of that, just trying to make it clear that those platitudes you acquired in your circles are farcical. Apropos farcical, there are enough cases which are evidence that people apparently are entitled to be upset, because whenever powerful individuals in french society are mocked or ridiculed the consequences are very different e.g. Charlie Hebdo fired Maurice Sinet (who had been drawing political cartoons since the 50s!) for mocking Sarkozy's son. Again I expect no concession from you whatsoever, you clearly have a big axe to grind, just putting this out there as a reference for neutral observers.
      - Chris2048 5y ago
        > Charlie Hebdo fired Maurice Sinet ... for mocking Sarkozy's son. want he fired on suspicion of antisemitism? He won a unlawful termination suit so why do the newspapers actions (versus the courts) represent western values? It's obvious to me jewish a special case, rightly it wrongly, because of WW2.

Chris2048 5y ago

"have a problem with the way they're being treated" includes satire of the prophet?

pasabagi 5y ago
That does seem the kind of thing that upsets religious people. It wouldn't bother me, an atheist, except it's part of a broader targeting of muslims that occurs across western europe and at every level of society. It is, of course, a total coincidence that most muslims are brown.
- kergonath 5y ago
  > it's part of a broader targeting of muslims that occurs across western europe and at every level of society. Except of course it isn’t. Caricatures poking fun at various religions are common, have been for quite a while, and people complain about them regularly. Yet we’ve somehow accepted that we can make fun of a big guy with a beard. Somehow nobody has been killed over the Life of Brian. There are a couple of fundamental human rights to which everyone is entitled. These include freedom of conscience, the right to live in peace, and freedom of expression. Religion is fine as long as it does not interfere with the rights of other people, which includes the right to laugh at beliefs. Humans have rights, ideas don’t. On the other hand, nobody has a right not to be upset, and certainly not to kill people and plant bombs over it. It really should be a no brainer for anyone supposed to be supportive of any kind of enlightenment values. This ”they should not do it, but” is just as bad as “I am not racist, but”. That we are arguing whether people have a moral right to violence where the rule of law prevails, over something as trivial as hurt feelings, is absolutely disgusting. Try to substitute “Islam” for any philosophy or belief to see how patently absurd that is. Republicans are upset when you tell them Biden won. Should we censure that from public discourse?
  - jedimind 5y ago
    >> it's part of a broader targeting of muslims that occurs across western europe and at every level of society. > Except of course it isn’t. Caricatures poking fun at various religions are common... Oh come on, his statement is clearly not just about caricatures, but about a general trend, not only in french society, which is especially toxic towards religious people, but especially to Muslims. The evidence is abundant and anyone who has not an axe to grind, like yourself, will have no issue in acknowledging these facts. > There are a couple of fundamental human rights to which everyone is entitled. Really, is that so? Can you provide scientific evidence for this or do we have to take you word for it? Can we discover those 'fundamental human rights' under the microscope or are 'enlightened' individuals going to dictate to others what are and aren't 'fundamental human rights'? > On the other hand, nobody has a right not to be upset Rights are just arbitrary inventions of the human mind so any society has the power to implement whatever rights they like. Not that I am in favour of that, just trying to make it clear that those platitudes you acquired in your circles are farcical. Apropos farcical, there are enough cases which are evidence that people apparently are entitled to be upset, because whenever powerful individuals in french society are mocked or ridiculed the consequences are very different e.g. Charlie Hebdo fired Maurice Sinet (who had been drawing political cartoons since the 50s!) for mocking Sarkozy's son. Again I expect no concession from you whatsoever, you clearly have a big axe to grind, just putting this out there as a reference for neutral observers.
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      > Charlie Hebdo fired Maurice Sinet ... for mocking Sarkozy's son. want he fired on suspicion of antisemitism? He won a unlawful termination suit so why do the newspapers actions (versus the courts) represent western values? It's obvious to me jewish a special case, rightly it wrongly, because of WW2.