4 ms·

One word - Petrodollar.

toss1 5y ago
Yup, the faster we can get away from oil as a primary energy source, the better things will get in many areas. (& no, I'm not really concerned about people, companies, and countries who have been making their living off fossil fuels for the last century+; they've received already great benefit and they can find other sources of sustainence, preferably sustainable sources.)
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  I am not sure if trading petrodollar for lithiumrenminbi is an overall gain. Industrial civilization, at least until some really advanced stage where asteroids can be mined economically, will always have a shortage of some important resource.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    Space seems like a long way to go versus just mining within the existing gravity well. What elements (other than hydrogen) do we lack?
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      Did you mean to say helium? The Earth is 75% covered with hydrogen-rich raw material, so I’d expect it to be plentiful, with the mines for it needing energy, but otherwise be straightforward.
      - Chris2048 5y ago
        Fair enough. By mass hydrogen is rare, but by accessibility easily obtained. But prising it away from Oxygen would probably make it uneconomical, not that space mining is much better.
  - mindslight 5y ago
    There is a significant difference between buying units of usable energy, and buying capital goods that produce and store usable energy. In the former, price increases are felt almost immediately, with at most a month reprieve while old stocks are used up (unless one has specifically paid a premium to hedge for lower prices). Whereas in the latter it affects the cost of new buildout first, and spot prices as only a secondary effect. Of course there's also Jevons paradox.
- clarkmoody 5y ago
  Or we can get away from the dollar. Oil as an energy source has lifted billions of people out of poverty, so its value goes far beyond the industry insiders. However, this is where nuclear power comes in: vast quantities of energy, with fuel sources not controlled by the United States.
  - vhgyu75e6u 5y ago
    That is such a non comment, dollar is the currency used to buy and sell because is the easiest one trade in the international market, not because it has some mystical power. They can sell it for euros, pounds or whatever. Oil is currently being used to keep dictatorships and regimes afloat within the OPEC. The United States does not control how many barrels of oil SA, UAE or other countries can push to the market.
    - OnlineGladiator 5y ago
      > dollar is the currency used to buy and sell because is the easiest one trade in the international market, not because it has some mystical power It actually is a little (well, a lot) more complicated than you might think. https://www.lynalden.com/fraying-petrodollar-system/ https://www.lynalden.com/fraying-petrodollar-system/
  - throwaway2331 5y ago
    Poverty exists only within industrial societies (and those that interact with industrial societies). Outside of that scope, poverty doesn't exist. It's a made up concept to describe the relative lack of material compared to some arbitrary, and ever-changing standard. Did hunter gatherers live in poverty? Or were they plenty content with their lot in life -- spending some of their time on survival in food-resource-rich geographies, and the rest on socializing and primitive leisure? How about uncontacted tribes in the Amazon Rainforest? Are you going to label them as "living in poverty" so they can be "saved" and "enriched" by Western Industrial Society's values? "Lifting people out of poverty" is slowly becoming "think of the children"; or even "housewives with nervous ailments should be treated with sedatives and lobotomies. Their conditions are quite saddening, so we should help them post-haste. We know best."
- hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
  I'd say it's wishful thinking. You can easily apply the "Petrodollar->US supports SA who is a joke" model to other country, e.g. "Ydollar->US supports X who is a joke". I guess you already see the common part in both models.

Yup, the faster we can get away from oil as a primary energy source, the better things will get in many areas. (& no, I'm not really concerned about people, companies, and countries who have been making their living off fossil fuels for the last century+; they've received already great benefit and they can find other sources of sustainence, preferably sustainable sources.)

inglor_cz 5y ago
I am not sure if trading petrodollar for lithiumrenminbi is an overall gain. Industrial civilization, at least until some really advanced stage where asteroids can be mined economically, will always have a shortage of some important resource.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  Space seems like a long way to go versus just mining within the existing gravity well. What elements (other than hydrogen) do we lack?
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    Did you mean to say helium? The Earth is 75% covered with hydrogen-rich raw material, so I’d expect it to be plentiful, with the mines for it needing energy, but otherwise be straightforward.
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      Fair enough. By mass hydrogen is rare, but by accessibility easily obtained. But prising it away from Oxygen would probably make it uneconomical, not that space mining is much better.
- mindslight 5y ago
  There is a significant difference between buying units of usable energy, and buying capital goods that produce and store usable energy. In the former, price increases are felt almost immediately, with at most a month reprieve while old stocks are used up (unless one has specifically paid a premium to hedge for lower prices). Whereas in the latter it affects the cost of new buildout first, and spot prices as only a secondary effect. Of course there's also Jevons paradox.
clarkmoody 5y ago
Or we can get away from the dollar. Oil as an energy source has lifted billions of people out of poverty, so its value goes far beyond the industry insiders. However, this is where nuclear power comes in: vast quantities of energy, with fuel sources not controlled by the United States.
- vhgyu75e6u 5y ago
  That is such a non comment, dollar is the currency used to buy and sell because is the easiest one trade in the international market, not because it has some mystical power. They can sell it for euros, pounds or whatever. Oil is currently being used to keep dictatorships and regimes afloat within the OPEC. The United States does not control how many barrels of oil SA, UAE or other countries can push to the market.
  - OnlineGladiator 5y ago
    > dollar is the currency used to buy and sell because is the easiest one trade in the international market, not because it has some mystical power It actually is a little (well, a lot) more complicated than you might think. https://www.lynalden.com/fraying-petrodollar-system/ https://www.lynalden.com/fraying-petrodollar-system/
- throwaway2331 5y ago
  Poverty exists only within industrial societies (and those that interact with industrial societies). Outside of that scope, poverty doesn't exist. It's a made up concept to describe the relative lack of material compared to some arbitrary, and ever-changing standard. Did hunter gatherers live in poverty? Or were they plenty content with their lot in life -- spending some of their time on survival in food-resource-rich geographies, and the rest on socializing and primitive leisure? How about uncontacted tribes in the Amazon Rainforest? Are you going to label them as "living in poverty" so they can be "saved" and "enriched" by Western Industrial Society's values? "Lifting people out of poverty" is slowly becoming "think of the children"; or even "housewives with nervous ailments should be treated with sedatives and lobotomies. Their conditions are quite saddening, so we should help them post-haste. We know best."
hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
I'd say it's wishful thinking. You can easily apply the "Petrodollar->US supports SA who is a joke" model to other country, e.g. "Ydollar->US supports X who is a joke". I guess you already see the common part in both models.